to feel a bit gutted that DS primary school is 80% full of chav roughneck parents....

[Boobalina]

I know I am going to get shot down here but hear me out. DS is in reception at our local school walking distance from our house. Various friends of ours (who all live in nicer parts of the city) children all go to their local schools which are ofsted 'outstanding' and full of middle class parents and kids. Now this is what you get when you cant afford to live in a nicer part of the city I know... but every now and then it really guts me. DS went to a very nice nursery and pre-school close to my work which was a bit posh and DD still goes there. But we couldnt afford to send DS there for primary school. His teachers seem really lovely, and really professional - its just some of the kids and parents there.

I went to a nice village primary school and then ended up going to a rather rough comp after and it did me know harm at all. I just wanted a bit more for my kids and also its hard to make friends with some of the mums when they are screaming at their toddlers, smoking lamberts and comparing lovebites (really!)

I am really jealous of my friends....

and they have bigger houses than us....

pathetic isnt it........

"there is no shame in not wanting your child to rub shoulders with kids who aren't brought up properly."

That's where I think the problem lies. You are blaming the children for their parents' faults. And that is snobbery and I think there is shame in that.

I'm not denying that it is absolutely gut-wrenchingly difficult to worry about your DC's education - my DS is probably about to fail the 11+, I know all about the sheer fear of him going to a school where you know that a lot of the people he will mix with are from bloody awful familes and I sometimes wish I had the money to just opt out. I think that's true of any problem or headache we've got in our lives though isn't it, we just wish we had a magic wand (in the form of money, usually) to wave and solve it all.

But d'you know what, I was from a bloody awful family too. My parents were sweary, shouty, abusive bastards, my father would get drunk and vomit, hit my mum, hit us, etc. etc. - decent people would have been horrified by my parents. And doubtless they discouraged their children's friendships with me. And I know for a fact that some of the people in my area discourage DS's best friend, because they judge him by his parents, and that is just so wrong and unfair. (Oh and it also becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because if you continually treat a child as if they are an undesirable, they will eventually meet your expectations. "If a child lives with criticism..." etc)

I did rub shoulders with kids who weren't brought up properly, i.e. they were shoplifting and glue sniffing by the age of 10 because their parents didn't give a toss about what they were doing. And guess what, my parents saw me hanging out with these kids were worried about it. So they moved me to another town/school and I narrowly avoided being dragged into all of that. I then went to a school with children from nice families who didn't swear and shout at their children in the playground and I know that move changed my life. You can call it snobbery, I call it real life experience.

bewitched, I am so sorry about the sad childhood you've had, and your post has given me lots of thought... I think the op is trying to actively get involved in the school and children's life- volutneering, pta etc- which surely is a good and positive way to engage with the children?

you are absolutely right whcih is unfair to judge children by their parents' faults, and after all, we have no idea what goes on beyond closed doors (my best friend's father regularly threw objects at her during arguments, and the level of emotional abuse that went on in that family was scary- and they were a "lovely", educated, middle class family).

However, I still think that, as parents, our first and foremost instinct and duty is to protect OUR children. and that includes protecting them, as far as possible, from the influence of vicious, immoral, neglectful adults. It is extremely sad, but while I can feel absolutely devastated thinking about the little girl who has to go home to an abusive, drunken father and an emotionally distant and neglectful mother, that doesnt' mean I would want my kids to hang around that person too, if I can possibly help it.

bewitched, I am so sorry about the sad childhood you've had, and your post has given me lots of thought... I think the op is trying to actively get involved in the school and children's life- volutneering, pta etc- which surely is a good and positive way to engage with the children?

you are absolutely right it is unfair to judge children by their parents' faults, and after all, we have no idea what goes on beyond closed doors (my best friend's father regularly threw objects at her during arguments, and the level of emotional abuse that went on in that family was scary- and they were a "lovely", educated, middle class family).

However, I still think that, as parents, our first and foremost instinct and duty is to protect OUR children. and that includes protecting them, as far as possible, from the influence of vicious, immoral, neglectful adults. It is extremely sad, but while I can feel absolutely devastated thinking about the little girl who has to go home to an abusive, drunken father and an emotionally distant and neglectful mother, that doesnt' mean I would want my kids to hang around that person too, if I can possibly help it.

Dear Trinity...
Please do re-read your statement and see if you can spot a glaring contradiction:

"but I am not chavvy(whatever the fuck that really means)"

[yaawn]

To OP, that must be heart wrenching, I hope you'll find a way to send your DC to a better school.

After reading this post I realise I have to make an effort to get on with the parent who stands outside ds's yr 2 class and talks about her cunt of a husband and how she told him to fuck this and that. She has been spoken to by the head after she told another parent she'd put a chair over her head if her ds ever pushed her dd again - just being friendly I suppose. As I and one other parent seem to be the only ones shocked I see now it's my snobbery preventing a friendship developing .

i know i will be shot down in flames too, but i understand. The school my ds is at is in an ok ish area and so there are a huge range of social class within the school. We are probably at the middle to top end of this scale. However so far, i have found the school, pupils and parents pleasent. There are some that i wouldnt choose to have over for a cuppa (just as i am sure they wouldnt want to come!!), but i still stand and chat with them (and ignore the swearing etc). Also there is a surestart centre near me that i go to a tot group at and again there are ALOT of mums who go who i wouldnt necessarily have spoken to other wise but they are the nicest bunch ever.

What i am trying to say is that although they appear "chavy" and some of their behaviour may be - they may also be the nicest and most loyal friend you make.

Nobody denies that it is neglect not to feed or look after your children. Nor would anyone particularly want their children to have playdates in families where crime is seen as a normal way to earn a living. But it is a BIG leap from there to assuming that anyone who shouts at their toddler, has a "chavvy" accent or dress sense or smokes outside school gates is going to fall in this category. The OP did not mention that all the parents at this school leave their children unfed all day or trains them as pickpockets. She mentioned things such as smoking and shouting, which doesn't have to be associated with any immoral behaviour whatsoever.

I know plenty of well educated well spoken people who smoke. And I have it on good authority that child neglect occurs in all social classes. I myself have been wrongly accused of it. And I know Latin and Greek.

Lots of Mums around my way smoke. Lots shout at their toddlers. We have plenty of estuary accents. But hammer attacks are mercifully unknown.

In fact, the only instances of physical violence that have come to my immediate attention lately have been from the groves of academe (not I hasten to add, my own sweet and cuddly place of employment). I don't know if I would want my dcs to go to school with the offspring of an academic colleague who recently attacked his head of department and tried to tear his hair out. But am sure you could not refer to this person as chavvy.

I don't disagree that people's foremost instinct and duty is to protect their own children; I just don't think that you necessarily do that by teaching your children to judge people by their relatives and not be friends with someone who might be a decent, worthwhile person.

And it is a very good point that cruelty, neglect and emotional abuse go on in respectable families, but nobody is moving house to get away from them or stopping a friendship with their children and that is snobbery.

I don't disagree that some people are so bad that you don't want your child to go to their house; and if that child is already showing signs of extreme undesirability and dysfunction, then I too would discourage a friendship; but you can dress it up however you want, to actually discourage a friendship with a child you know is nice (for whatever reason s/he is being given some resilience from another source from his home) on account of his relatives, is snobbery, pure and simple.

I'm slightly confused by the "real life" thing btw. i have a real life, AFAIK.

Bewitched- we are in a similar situation- ds will probably not get to grammar school and will go to local improving boys comp. Dh hates it, whereas i think he'll be happier- more local boys , instead of half the school bussed in from other boroughs, lots of boys he knows, he'll be in the top set. Of course there will be boys there who are disruptive, don't want to learn etc...boys I don't want him to be best friends with. But you can't hide kids from real life, and he will get on with it and get on with them. Thank goodness I no longer have to do the school gate thing.

op. i do understand where you are coming from ..this is why I work bloody hard so ds can go private....sacrifice yes, but well worth it so far

rollmops

you seem extrememly friendly....

I was probably posting from the point of veiw of feeling exceedingly vulnerable at the mo and being the person everyone avoids just cause I am not a sheep

and they will probably now avoid my children now that their dad is dead

and I was probably drunk

I do get where the op is coming from

We were talking about this very thing today -we have a wonderful primary school, with lovely, caring staff, but some really unpleasant mothers who linger outside the gates and smoke, screech at their children and swear at each other. This has not yet resulted in physical violence, but we are (seriously) counting the days. The staff have had to ask them to keep it away from the school gates. Their poor kids, to have this as their role model in life.

Now I wonder if people think I'm a snob for sending my dts to a school in a different town (fyi I can't afford to move, I'm single mum was on benefits until recently and in social housing.) I just wanted my dts to go to a good school with a fair mix of people.

The local schools were okay but the problem was that no matter what the schools did it was the attitude of the parents that affected them. This was from the school placements department btw not just my opinion. I heard enough from neighbours about parents fighting at the school gates and I'm a wimp!

Where dts go there is a mix, some well off parents, some on benefits, single parents etc. So dts are friends with a whole range of people.

Oh and to add, my priority was that dts go to school in classes where the children turn up unless ill and where the parents give a damn.

Cory, as a former academic, I can wholly understand why someone might be moved to physically attack his HoD. Not that I am advocating violence - but working in universities can have a disastrous effect on an otherwise sane person. I doubt that he would behave in the same way around his child(ren). Even the worst behaved child is as nothing compared to a badly behaved academic.

Rollmops - posh people do say "fuck", you know

I think, OP, you've worded your fears badly, but I do understand.
I was brought up in poverty and my Mum was a fish out of water on our estate.
It was perfectly common to hit children, swear at them. Lots of young teens hung about smoking, taking drugs, drinking etc. Glue sniffing was endemic.
My Mum did absolutely everything to help me leave that rotten place. She would be applauded for the lenghts she went to, and yet if she had articulated how she felt she would have said some of her neighbours were not 'decent' or that they were 'rough'.
She didn't have delusions of grandeur or consider herself better than them, she just wanted something very different.

kiwikat - at the school where I volunteer we have had some horrible incidents with parents. Screaming matches etc.
I wonder hwo some of the ordinary parents can stand it.

Boobalina YANBU, theres nothing wrong with wanting better for your kids. I live and was brought up in a rough area of London, my DS goes to the local primary school and I know the kind of parents your talking about. I mixed with those kinds of kids when I was at school too. But I firmly believe it's about how your brought up and not what school you go to or whom you go to school with.
Unfortunately we can't all afford to live in "posh" areas you just have to do the best with what you've got.

OP, are you still alive?? Posting that was MN suicide!

tbh, dh & I are busting a gut to keep dc in private schools but mostly because only private offers support for SN kids in this country. And also, yeah, because we think we can protect them from drugs, violence, abuse, etc just that little bit longer. Probably naïve but we hope...

OP-i reckon our kids go to the same school!!!