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Primary education

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Original poster

I found out this morning that my children have been saying prayers before lunch...

228 replies

cece · 27/03/2009 09:29

We deliberately chose a non-church school (most of the local schools to us are church schools) as we are not religious and did not want our children educated in this way. In fact it is a community school.

But today DS told us that they say prayers before they go for lunch. DD (who is now in the juniors, so was there for 3 years) confirmed this... She knew the words off by heart.

Now I am not happy (at all) about this, and neither is DH.

My question is should I complain?

OP posts:
sweetheart · 27/03/2009 14:57

HYJACK!!!!

NINAH - is that you??? Are you back?? How the devil are you? Would be great to say Hello!!!!!!
SH xxx

Ceolas · 27/03/2009 15:32

Gunnerbean, I would be perfectly happy for my children to learn that some people have no belief in God and that they should respect that. I have taught them that at home and would be glad for the school to reinforce that.

Muffle, obviously I don't avocate tolerating practices which cause harm to others. Praying or collective reflection/worship is hardly comparable.

muffle · 27/03/2009 15:42

Praying for yourself doesn't cause harm, no. But frightening a small child into thinking her unborn baby brother or sister will come to harm if it's not prayed for is nasty - and IMO it is harmful to spout dogma at kids as if it's the truth, when they are supposed to be learning about how to use and understand evidence as a basis for facts.

But my post was mainly questioning the stock response that you ought to respect other people's practices and beliefs - I think that one should be more carefully thought through. people who say that don't actually mean that, if they think about it. They just mean the beliefs and practices that they decide are OK.

happywomble · 27/03/2009 16:03

Cece I think its really sad that you have a problem with your child doing hymn practice at school. Most children absolutely love singing hymns at school.

The idea of a secular hymn practice does not appeal to me.

ninah · 27/03/2009 16:06

it was music practice wasn't it? lots of songs in the world
yes sh it's me replied to thread in lp!

solidgoldbrass · 27/03/2009 16:28

But religious people frequently tell their children that believers of other religions are daft - and that unbelievers are sad, ill, doomed etc. Monotheists believe in one imaginary friend not all the others.

happywomble · 27/03/2009 17:06

What makes you think people say this sgb? I doubt people frequently say this kind of thing at all.

piscesmoon · 27/03/2009 17:16

Britain is a Christian country, but people often don't come across it until their DC starts school. A non church school is not a secular school.

CrushWithEyeliner · 27/03/2009 17:18

Not true SGB simply not true

solidgoldbrass · 27/03/2009 17:25

Not all religious people do this, but some do (as demonstrated by some of the horror stories on here about loopily religious teachers who overstep the mark). Why is it seen as worse to tell your DC that there aren't any gods, than to tell them that there are?

piscesmoon · 27/03/2009 17:32

I am always amazed by the amount of people who want to dictate what their DCs should believe. I think they should be given all the information and lots of different opinions and then make up their own minds. The atheist parent may not have an atheist child, the Christian parent may not have a Christian child.They are free spirits-not clones to be told what to believe-either by school or parent. Regular hymn practice or a prayer before lunch is not going to make for a flood of 'born again' Christians!

Blu · 27/03/2009 17:37

I have seen (ordinary, apparantly non-loony) Christians on MN say they wouldn't allow their children to enter a mosque as part of a school visit because taking their shoes off was tantamount to taking part in religious practice.

Personally, I'm not that bothered if Ds gets caught up in some praying from time to time, just as I'm not ruffled if he gets a coconut macheted open over him amid incense and muttering when one of his gms takes him to a hindu temple...I just think that schools shouldn't make it part of everyday life without making it very clear to parents. I take DevilsAdvocates point about teachers and schools getting bashed and criticised at every turn, but IMOCece's school has overstepped the mark, and if you have chosen a community school, then they shouldn't be doing more than the bare minimum of observing the NC.

Of course, it's a travesty that there should even be compulsory christian worship in schools - but that's because we have an undemocratic link between state and church. Compulsory religion just doesn't sit well within a democratic coountry - my objections are political rather then religious.

Blu · 27/03/2009 17:39

Picesmoon - then they should equally be particpating in other religious practices, as well as Christian praying! perhaps a little koran learning and then some worshipping of Hanuman with milk and fruit?

There would be uproar. Amongst some.

Praying isn't learning about - it's doing

Littlepurpleprincess · 27/03/2009 17:47

I would so complain.

I've got to get my sons name down for a school soon and we actually live next door to a school but it is very religous. When I went to look around I asked about RE and she said it had a christian ethos but "it's not shoved down their throats", however, everywhere I looked was religion, they have assembly everyday and a vicar in regularly, to me that is shoving down their throats. Religion is a personal thing and should be left out of school. I would go as far as to say, I am frightened of what my son will be taught about religion and right and wrong when he is at school. If he is taught creation instead of Big Bang theory I will be very angry, and DS will never be forced into saying a prayer, ever.

At home I will teach him to respect other peoples right to say a prayer and to sit quietly if they do so in school, but I will make it very clear to him that it is his choice to take part, and no teacher is to make him feel that he has too.

justaboutback · 27/03/2009 17:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Blu · 27/03/2009 18:04

Don't apologise for being repetitive, Justabout - everyone else is

Mumcentreplus · 27/03/2009 18:07

Don't complain...just ask that your children not partake...tis simple

TheFallenMadonna · 27/03/2009 18:15

One of the scientists behind Big Bang theory was Catholic priest. All christians are not creationists.

Littlepurpleprincess · 27/03/2009 18:21

That's not what I'm saying, I mean I want him be taught science as fact, religion as belief, I don't mean the two can't cross.

abraid · 27/03/2009 18:24

' If he is taught creation instead of Big Bang theory I will be very angry, and DS will never be forced into saying a prayer, ever.'

Even in my Catholic RC school in the seventies we weren't taught that creation was LITERALLY true and I certainly don't believe it. My children are both in Anglican schools and have never been taught creationism either.

And, erm, Big Bang is still a theory not a fact, so you should be equally worried if he's 'taught' that. Equally, there are flaws in the theory of evolution as well, as it's obvious that some species mutated rather more quickly than Darwin imagined.

TheFallenMadonna · 27/03/2009 18:32

I'm not sure what you mean. How would they cross? I'm a science teacher and I teach science as, well, science. Religion only comes into my lessons when brought up by the children and I then talk about scientific method and the difference between that and religion. Do they cross do you think?.

seeker · 27/03/2009 19:00

OK - so all the people who say that it's OK for non-Christian children to say prayers at school, how would they feel if their children were told to make pour a libation to the Goddess before meals?

And I am happy to answer the Christmas question. We do celebrate Christmas - and we tell the children that there are lovely traditional stories that people have been telling since people began, and it's nice to celebrate like our ancestors did. We talk about Christmas as a pagan midwinter festival as well, and about St Nicholas and about Yule Logs and mistletoe and holly and ivy....we are, I am afraid, a VERY poncy family!

piscesmoon · 27/03/2009 19:09

'if school religion worked there would be a lot more churchgoers.'

Exactly.
In RE they learn about all religions and, if lucky get to visit places of worship-mosques etc.

'
' Religion is a personal thing and should be left out of school. '

You need to read the 1988 Education Act. Religion isn't left out of school, there are lots of rules and it also sets out how much of it has to be Christian.If a school wants to opt out because the DCs are of a different religion they have proceedures-they can't just do it.

piscesmoon · 27/03/2009 19:13

It could be the 1998 Education Act-I always get confused.

SalBySea · 27/03/2009 19:18

"There was an issue a couple of years ago when we found out DD was learning hymns insinging practice. I think this is not necessary"

are you serious?
You cannot teach things like art history and music without religious reference you nutter! Not without re-writing history