I found out this morning that my children have been saying prayers before lunch...

[cece]

We deliberately chose a non-church school (most of the local schools to us are church schools) as we are not religious and did not want our children educated in this way. In fact it is a community school.

But today DS told us that they say prayers before they go for lunch. DD (who is now in the juniors, so was there for 3 years) confirmed this... She knew the words off by heart.

Now I am not happy (at all) about this, and neither is DH.

My question is should I complain?

solidgoldbrass, you really tell your ds that praying to god is daft? nice.

how about saying that it is something that you don't believe in but others do.

how can you expect your kids to be tolerant and understanding of others when you are disrespecting their beliefs?

Cece, do you teach about the pagan festivals and the goddess Oestre at Easter as well?

solidgoldbrass, "COllective worship is ridiculous to rational people because it's attempting to communicate with something that simply isn't there."

I didn't appreciate how many irrational people I surround myself with

i actually can't believe you wrote this:

'cos it isn't nice to interrupt things that are important to other people even if they are stupid.'

DevilsAdvocaat - people with religious beliefs tell their children that there is a god/great pumpkin/goddess or whatever, no matter what the DC are told in school. So why shouldn't I tell my DS that it's a load of old bollocks, as long as I impress upon him that he shouldn't be publicly rude to the people who take it seriously?

are you able to ask for your child to be removed from collective worship in a church school?
ds attends church school, simply because this is our village school. I am not religious. Presently he is repeating all kinds of half digested information, the most recent example being that the 'devil tempted him' to misbehave last weekend. I realise that having sent him to a church school I have to accept some dogma coming home but this seems excessive. So, is this a possibility?

christmas, the festival of shopping, ritual watching of 'the great escape' and the decoration of a tree in the time old honour of the german husband of an old queen.
A winter festival of eating and drinking HAD very little to do with christianity in northern europe and was accomadated by the early church.
BUt we can still enjoy a community in celebration as non believers, as we can enjoy diwali and ede.

SGB, you can bring you child up in an atheist fashion without rubbishing other people's beliefs by saying that they are silly and daft.

ninah, i doubt it. you should request a copy of the school's RE policy to get a bit more of an idea of what should be happening.

zanz1bar, i'm not saying that is wrong at all. we are the same here. the point i was making is that we have to accept that christianity is a part of our society, culture and heritage.

it will be many years before all traces of it are gone if that ever happens at all.

OK, I'll do that. Did raise the devil thing at parents' evening and his teacher thought it was a bit

The thing is, sgb has right and fact and reality and evidence on her side, and religious people don't.

Praying is, in a factual sense, daft and stupid. It might make you feel better inside, and in that sense it's not something I'd want to deny people - but it has been shown scientifically to have zero effect (as if that's necessary - but anyway). So acting around children as if it is some kind of important and effective activity is really misleading.

If the teacher told your child that they could make it rain by doing a silly dance, that would be daft and stupid and you would be right to tell your child that. If they told your child that you can't get pregnant if you have sex standing up, that would be daft and stupid and you would be right to tell your child that. Some people believe it - so what? That doesn't make it an OK thing to teach.

I really find it objectionable to teach one's children that other people's beliefs and practices are daft and stupid.

Ah yes, christmas DA. Kind of a bad example for you to choose, as it was a pre-existing festival that christians appropriated in order to make their evangelistic programme a bit easier. I celebrate it as it has always been celebrated, as a winter festival with feasting and lights, no worship necessary. I call it christmas because that's what it's called these days - I don't mind the fact that the word has a christian origin, that doesn't bother me. (As I guess you don't mind using the pagan goddess-derived name "Easter"?)

There is absolutely no legal justification for including religious prayers before school dinners.Yes, collective worship - but that's assmbly. And many many many community schools manage to leave out specific 'worship'.

I am all for learning about many religious practices, I am all for collective community reflection and cohesion (singing could do that...or a secular assmbly).

But to simply say that incorprating christian worship into a school day 'will do no harm' ignores the fact that it actively involves children in religious practice that is not in a context of 'what do we all think of this'. If schools are doing this, they should be making it clear.

Historically this country was pagan. How many of you would be so complacent about your child (unbeknown to you) actively taking part in an act of pagan worship before their school dinner?

fgs.

the point of praying in non-religious schools is mainly to get kids to reflect on being thankful.

i am going to step away from this thread now as i can see myself going around in circles.

i actaully think that there are much worse things than saying a prayer and believing in god.

if people spent more time and effort trying to support their schools and teachers instead of complaining about every last little detail then the world would be a better place. i am not saying this in response to anything on here but it's something to ponder eh?

teachers and schools, on the whole, are good and are trying to get it right. however, there are always teachers and schools who get it wrong and they are exceptional ime.

yes by all means complain if your child is coming home with some seriously questionable utterings but for gods sake remember that we aren't all like this!

rant over.

Ceolas. Female genital mutilation? Raping a baby girl because having sex with a virgin will cure you of AIDS? Killing yourself because you think an alien spaceship is coming to collect true believers and save them from imminent armageddon?

Shall we teach our children to respect all these beliefs and practices just because they are people's beliefs and practices? If not, where do you draw the line between what's the truth and what's nonsense. I can't see anywhere to draw the line except at the dividing line between empirical, scientific findings and understanding (including descriptions of what people believe of course), and all superstitious belief itself, including all religious dogma. One belongs in school. The other, well I can't see how it belongs in a place where children are supposed to learn about reality.

"faith can't be measured by scientists"

No of course not, but the effectiveness of praying on actual outcomes can be and has been. In reference to the teacher who scared sketch's DD by saying praying would be sure to protect her baby from harm - she was talking bollocks, and that is a fact.

"the point i was making is that we have to accept that christianity is a part of our society, culture and heritage.

it will be many years before all traces of it are gone if that ever happens at all."

I am a secular atheist, and I have no wish to deny the enormous impact of christianity (and other religions, actually) on our culture, nor for any of them to be 'wiped out' , but that is completely different fom involving children in actual religious practice - in a community school - and will help ensure that our constitution, perhaps, remains rooted in christian practice. While ever people are told to 'lump it' we remain more likely to have unelected bishops in the Lords - who often have an effect on legislation that the majority of the population does not accept. etc etc.

I see that parliament this morning was debating whether the heir to the throne should be allowed to marry (shock horror) a catholic - I await the outcome with interest. How totally ridiculous that we have a constition and a monarchy bound by religious exclusiveness like that!

You can get kids to reflect on their good fortune, and to be grateful, without actually praying to god.

muffle, that may be the case for you but really, how many people celebrate christmas because of the pagan festival? not as many as christian.

also blu has a point here as many community schools do leave out the god bits so i guess more could if they wanted to.

problem is, when being visited by ofsted, they will mark you down for this as the law states CW should have a christian backing to it.

then what happens? parents read it and guess what? THEY COMPLAIN!!!

i actually can't stay away from this thread

I know Blu I just saw that in the paper at lunchtime, about the catholics and the royal family. Along with having just been on this thread I did have to pinch myself and ask "am I, in fact, living in 1527?"

"I really find it objectionable to teach one's children that other people's beliefs and practices are daft and stupid."

I believe that too and I have no objection whatsoever to my child being taught about others' religious beliefs as part of the school curriculum. I just wish that alongside telling them about Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity and so on they would also tell them that it's also perfectly rational, reasonable and valid to not believe in a God(s) at all and that there are just as many people who don't believe in God(s) as do.

I off to celebrate the end of the week and break open a packet of sweeties with my dc and reflect on the week that has passed. later i shall partake of the ritual first cocktail of the evening. happy friday everyone.