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Primary education

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Original poster

I found out this morning that my children have been saying prayers before lunch...

228 replies

cece · 27/03/2009 09:29

We deliberately chose a non-church school (most of the local schools to us are church schools) as we are not religious and did not want our children educated in this way. In fact it is a community school.

But today DS told us that they say prayers before they go for lunch. DD (who is now in the juniors, so was there for 3 years) confirmed this... She knew the words off by heart.

Now I am not happy (at all) about this, and neither is DH.

My question is should I complain?

OP posts:
Gunnerbean · 27/03/2009 10:17

"What's wrong with giving thanks and reflecting on whatever invisible forces are around us"

Nothing wrong with that at all Swanriver but it's just that no one can actually claim to really know what or who those invisible forces are can they? And therein lies the problem for me.

Whilst I have no objection whatsoever to my child being taught in school that there are different schools of thought on what those invisible forces might be (i.e people who subscribe to different schools of thought have organised themselves into groups which make up different religions) I do have a problem with him being taught that one is the "the truth" and the others are wrong.

If you have faith of course you will believe that your school of thought (religion) is right. if you don;t have faith you will see them all as the same - i.e just different schools of thought on the subject.

...Oh, and let's not forget that there are those who subscribe to the view that there are no invisible forces around us at all

DevilsAdvocaat · 27/03/2009 10:30

what about the wind then eh?!

i don't think most kids really care tbh. they are flexible and happy to join in with whatever. also they do tend to believe what their parents subscribe to at home so really, i don't think it matters.

if you don't want your child to be part of it you have the right to withdraw them. didn't anyone read the link i posted? it isn't actually down to the schools individually. our society is based on christianity (think easter, christmas etc.) i bet most of you who object to a christian base at school still celebrate those holidays?!

most non-specific community schools offer an incredibly balanced approach to RE. i'm sure if you observed an RE lesson or assembly you wouldn't find any bible bashing!

try not to worry so much, christianity (like other religions) offer excellent morals and stories. at primary level it is mostly about teaching that rather than specific religious rules and followings.

i am saying this as an atheist btw.

Marthasmama · 27/03/2009 10:30

Um because it is creationist rubbish Swanriver? If I wanted DS taught the creation myth as fact then I would have had him baptised and sent him to Catholic school. But I don't want that, I was brought up Catholic, as an adult I have been able to reflect upon my upbriging. I do not believe in God. Why on earth would I want my son taught something I think is incorrect? Science can explain how humans came to be, if DS wants further explaination and feels as an adult that God was the creative force behind evolution then that's up to him. However I do not want him taught creationism at school. As far as I am concern, it is rubbish.

snice · 27/03/2009 10:33

cece it sounds like my DS's school -I wonder if it is? Not in the Midlands are you?

DevilsAdvocaat · 27/03/2009 10:36

marthasmama, is he actually being taught that?

or might they have said 'some christians believe that...' or 'in the bible it says that...'?

IorekByrnison · 27/03/2009 11:57

Just to clarify one thing, marthasmama: Catholics are not Creationists. At my convent school we learned all about evolution in biology lessons, and in religious studies we were taught that the book of Genesis was not to be taken literally. It was not a particularly progressive school.

solidgoldbrass · 27/03/2009 12:05

Cece: if only one reception class does it, then it may be down to one superstitious teacher rather than school policy, in which case, frankly, it needs to be stepped on sooner rather than later.
Because a teacher who is superstitious enough to start unilaterally introducing superstitious rituals, however small and harmless, needs reminding that not everyone feels the same way and that he/she is going beyond her remit in peddling crap to the children.

seeker · 27/03/2009 12:19

I would complain. I have complained about similar things. It is not harmless - it is normalizing Christianity in impressionable minds. And it it PARTICULARLY inappropriate when a school has children from a lot of different backgrounds.

Marthasmama · 27/03/2009 12:30

DA - That is exactly why I want to ask about it. I don't know whether it's being taught as fact but I know that DS seems to think it was, but I am well aware that 5.5 year old boys might get a little muddled. It was taught in a lesson about the body and how the heart pumps blood etc...

Iorek - My experience at Catholic primary school was that the creation myth was taught as fact, but I was also taught that people from other religions were wrong and would burn in hell. Lovely! Maybe I'm considerably older than you.

I have asked ds if they are being taught about different religions and he said no, only about God and Jesus.

gegs73 · 27/03/2009 12:38

Wouldn't bother me. Just explain to your child that some people believe in God and some don't - you being one of them. If you draw it to the schools attention and she is excluded from prayers then she will be sat by herself/held back whilst they do it. Maybe you could just tell her to keep quiet put her head down and not say the words? I doubt saying prayers before lunch will make her a Christian just as much as not saying them will make her an atheist.

gegs73 · 27/03/2009 12:41

Sorry DS and DD

seeker · 27/03/2009 12:42

But the point is that a non church school shouldn't be saying prayers in the first place!

DevilsAdvocaat · 27/03/2009 12:43

seeker, you say that as if christianity is a dangerous thing!

also, don't you want your kids to make up their own minds?

personally i don't believe in god. if ds decides he does then so be it. it is a government standard and is not unusual, complaining to the school will not help if you mean the general day to day normal giving thanks in assemblies.

seeker, please read the link i posted further down in this thread.

DevilsAdvocaat · 27/03/2009 12:44

it is the government

muffle · 27/03/2009 12:48

"God made the first man and woman, sorry why is that creationist rubbish?"

erm... erm.... I've thought about it for a bit - how it is anything other than creationist rubbish? It is not a fact based on evidence, and that's what a non-faith school should be teaching - facts. (And any school IMO, but thats another story)

I totally agree with Cece - it is one thing learning about religions and what some people believe - I'm happy for my DS to learn that. It is another entirely being taught christian dogma as if it is true. Beliefs are not facts - as proof of that, why do religions teach such different things? If it's OK to teach a child in school that god made the first man and woman, or that god exists, then I take it you wouldn't mind if they taught scientology beliefs as fact (we're all descended from aliens) or Aztec beliefs about the importance of human sacrifice, or Muslim or Jewish beliefs eg it's wrong to eat pork? If not, why not? They're all religious beliefs, and they all hold the same weight - personal belief and nothing to to with fact.

If it is christian prayer I would be absolutely livid Cece and yes I would complain.

DevilsAdvocaat · 27/03/2009 12:51

shall i suggest that you complain to the goverment as IT IS THE LAW FOR SCHOOLS TO DO THIS! if you don't want your child to be part of it then you have to request for them to be withdrawn.

i feel like a broken record.

WowOoo · 27/03/2009 12:53

I agree with threadworm too.

It's nice and they are only showing gratitude and being thoughtful before they eat. I wouldn't mind that at all.

muffle · 27/03/2009 12:55

I see that DA. I would still complain, and I hope one day enough complaints about this sort of outrageous abuse of the power given to educators will move our education system out of the dark ages.

It is so wrong to use school to teach children religious dogma as fact, I can hardly even believe that I live in a supposedly civilized country.

abraid · 27/03/2009 12:59

If you didn't live in a civilised country you wouldn't be on here complaining about what seems like a minor issue, not an 'outrageous' abuse.

Elibean · 27/03/2009 13:01

I would ask about the wording, personally. If its general thanks for the meal and reflection (which is the nature of all the assembly prayers I've sat in on at dd's school), I'd be fine with it.

If my dd was being taught specific religious beliefs, eg god created man/woman etc, I would definitely look into it and complain.

DevilsAdvocaat · 27/03/2009 13:01

i find your attitude a little naive.
our society is based upon a christian background. what next, complaints about christmas holidays? do you celebrate on christmas day? i bet you do even if it isn't in a christian manner iykwim. the fact is that a lot of our culture and history is based upon the foundations of christianity. it is part of what makes our society. i'd rather my children had an understanding of why things are the way they are as a way to understand the world.

i also believe in freedom of choice, for children, when it comes to religion.

Elibean · 27/03/2009 13:01

And, thanks for the info DA - very interesting links.

ICANDOTHAT · 27/03/2009 13:02

Unless the school stated they do not do a religious assembly or any form or worship, regardless of religion, they are able to say prayers before lunch, during assembly or at the end of the day.

I know, because I too complained about my son attending a religious assembly and was told categorically that they were required to take part by law !!! Was also advised that if I did not like it, I could take my child elsewhere (this was not a church school)

DevilsAdvocaat · 27/03/2009 13:05

icandothat, it IS required by law. however, your school was wrong as you can request for them not to take part.

muffle · 27/03/2009 13:06

I also agree with freedom of choice and I want my son to learn about religions and make his choice.

Stating to a child as fact that god exists, especially coming from the teacher who teaches you actual facts such as the capital of Peru and why things float, is not minor. it's terrible and it undermines all education. Children should be learning that religion is a different type of information from facts, and the personal belief isn't something there is any evidence for, everyone is different and has their own view. Teaching it as fact is completely misleading.

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