I found out this morning that my children have been saying prayers before lunch...

[cece]

We deliberately chose a non-church school (most of the local schools to us are church schools) as we are not religious and did not want our children educated in this way. In fact it is a community school.

But today DS told us that they say prayers before they go for lunch. DD (who is now in the juniors, so was there for 3 years) confirmed this... She knew the words off by heart.

Now I am not happy (at all) about this, and neither is DH.

My question is should I complain?

I would definitely complain.

muffle, i doubt very much that non-religious schools teach like that. the one i worked in certainly didn't. they are required to say prayers, collectively worship. the prayers are not necessarily christian, jesus mentioning prayers but they can be.

teachers teach about ALL religions.
there is no way that children do not get balanced views. in our school we had 6 weeks of RE lesson. it would be something like this admittedly not all celebrated in the same term but the division between religions is correct):

1: discussing the torah (jewish)
2: looking at why the bible is important to some people (c of e)
3: looking at torah cover and why they are important (jewish)
4: looking at rangoli patterns for divali (hindu)
5: celebrating chinese new year
6: thinking about what and why people celebrate in religion

so some are based in specific religions, some aren't.

there is no way that any sane teacher would try to teach these lesson whilst saying 'but actually christianity is correct and we should believe in jesus'.

if you go into a c of e school the balance is different say 4 christian and 2 other religions a half term.

my only experience of catholic school was a 6 week placement i did where no other religions were mentioned at all

collective worship is important and most schools are able to do it in such a way that the muslim/hindu children are praying to their own god and any children who don't believe can just bow their head and think about being thankful.

DA I am glad to hear of this variety. But time and again people do report their DC coming home from non-faith schoold having been told very plainly "Jesus died for our sins" and "a robin's red breast is a stain of jesus's blood" and similar, presumably by christian teachers. I think that imparting dogma as fact should be banned.

"collective worship is important" why? Collective singing, collective activities yes they can be great - but what is helpful about worship - ie praising some unknown being?

I don't really get why non-christians object to things like this. If you don't believe in God then why do people praying to Him trouble you so much? Surely from your viewpoint it's just words and empty ritual - it only has power if you actually believe.

i visited a hutterite colony where they employ english (as in nationality, not subject lol) teachers for their primary age children.
it was really interesting for the teachers, as they were sacked if they introduced a whisper about evolution or questioned the religious teaching in any way.
very interesting place, in an anthropological sort of way...

i have no bones with collective worship (and am a school governor lol) but i am curious to learn how dd1 decided that writing a prayer on the reverse of every times table test (in a 'please help me pass this test' capacity) was going to be helpful... i'm certain it wasn't at the suggestion of her teacher. or me. funny old world.

OP - ask to remove your child if you wish. this may highlight the practice to the school, and as a result if the head and governors feel it is inappropriate, they will act.

collective worship is important because it encourages children to reflect spiritually and morally, together. it is part of feeling like a community. in fact, when done properly, collective worship allows people of all faith and non faith to come together as one group. we can believe different things and yet we feel the same. can you see the imlications of that for these young people growing up? tolerance. understanding. unity.

i still find it hard to believe that anyone has experienced these very strong teachings from a non-religious school.prayers? yes. hymns? yes. telling stories? yes.

"Jesus died for our sins" and "a robin's red breast is a stain of jesus's blood"

if this kind of thing is really happening, i suggest that firstly, it is very rare, and secondly, it is not the ethos of non-religious schools. in this case i would certainly be complaining and raising concerns.

OMG children actually saying prayers???? what is the world coming to.

The problem is NOT with the school, as DA has pointed out. Like it or not we live in what is considered to be a Christian country, and until that changes then these things will continue in schools. If you don't like it, maybe you should consider joining a secular group such as the British Humanist Society, and help campaign for a better separation of Church and State in the UK - or indeed finally recognition that practising Christians are in the minority and should not have such a powerful influence.

Oh and BTW I agree fully with DA that properly done, collective worship is valuable, along with learning about world religions/beliefs. Heck, we did this at my C of E school 30-odd years ago!!

Wow I have come home to rather a long thread!

Thanks for all of the comments.

I am not massively worried about it but I am annoyed; as it is a community school I did not expect them to be doing prayers like this (eg not in assembly).

I know they have to do a collective act of worship daily by law and accept this. However, it can be done in a religious way and not so religious way iyswim.

I am a primary school teacher and I have never taken prayers in my classroom nor do I know of any colleagues who do this (openly).

There was an issue a couple of years ago when we found out DD was learning hymns insinging practice. I think this is not necessary. There are plenty of lovely secular songs they could be learning. When I mentioned it the teacher actually called it 'hymn practice' thn quickly corrected herself! So they are obviously including things liek this in the curriculum...

Schools are obliged under the Law to provide a daily collective worship of a broadly Christian nature appropriate to the make up of the school. This refers to a whole school assembly which is managed at the discretion of the Head. It is appropriate under the law for example for 51% of assemblies to be Christian in nature and 49% to reflect other faiths.

The OP is talking about specific Chriatian prayers being said, presumably at the instigation of one particular teacher in one particular Reception class. This is an entirely different matter.

And I have no objection at all to my children learning ABOUT the Christian faith - it is an important part of their heritage. I would object very strongly to them actually PRACTICING that Faith in the classroom. Again, there is a huge difference between these two.

actually cece it does have to be done in a christian way. unless the school applies for a special thingamy bob. can't remember what it is called though.

I refer the Honourable Members to my post of 13.39.36.

seeker they aren't the only class that does it as op's older child does too.

prayer is part of it, in assembly or classroom.

first it says:

'Collective worship can be organised into form groups or year groups or whatever is appropriate for the school.'

that explains teaching in classrooms.

then:

'Teachers cannot be required to lead or attend collective worship except where the law provides otherwise. This would normally only happen in a maintained school with a religious designation.'

so if a teacher doesn't want to, they don't have to. i probably wouldn't as it would make me feel uncomfortable as i don't believe.

can you see now that what the op's school is doing isn't wrong in terms of the law?

Children from different religions are usually excluded from prayers etc at the parents request. It is possibly wrong for them to persume all children should be included but I think unless you tell the school your beliefs or what you dont believe and ask for that to be respected then its a little difficult to complain

"People playing to god" doesn't trouble me, that's their business.

Teachers who are supposed to teach facts, imparting religious dogma as fact - that troubles me. The examples I gave were from MN threads. It may be rare, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned.

I do accept that this country has a christian cultural heritage but what's that got to do with the price of eggs? I can't see why that means it's ok to teach children evidence-free dogma as fact. France has a christian culture too, you might even say more so, but it has secular schooling so it's not impossible.

oops praying

Ooooh, this sort of thing realy annoys me!

When in yr 1, DD1 had a very religious teacher (non faith school). She was pregnant, as was I at the time. She told the children that she went to church twice a week to make sure her baby was healthy and safe. DD1 came home and burst into tears as I didn't go to church and she thought our baby would die!!

They were also shown a video of jesus being put on the cross. DH flipped and I tried to calm him down and said she was probably exagerating, but no, she described the nails being put into his hands and feet, the crown of thorns on his head, the blood dripping down, and people throwing stones at him, so obv very graphic! I was livid!

They do prayers and hymns too in assembly. As a result of the school, my DD believes in god and jesus etc..but won't entertain the fact that we don't. She thinks we are bad and wrong! Her words!!

Not happy.

And so, we have it as part of government policy that "our" "national" religion has to be a prevailling feature of daily "worship" and you can opt your child out if you don't like it or have a different religion.

Hmm, so moral, so collective, so spiritually inclusive. What it basically means is, you have another religion or no religion, well you get christianity forced down your throat (or at best, ever-present as a general prevailing background view) or alternatively you get to be made to feel like an outsider. Am I alone in thinking there could be better ways of encouraging community moral feeling and togetherness, such as secular singing, sharing stories and successes and values, without dogma or worship having to be any part of it?

Your angels are dancing cheerfully on the head of your pin, devilsadvocaat!

Stretch's story is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about and that many MNers have reported.

And stretch the pregnancy example is exactly the kind of absolute bunkum that I think confuses children and undermines things such as proper science teaching. Not only was your poor DD scared, she was led to think that praying can have any effect on the outcome of a pregnancy, when, statistically (it has been scientifically tested), we know it 100% doesn't.

Well my assemblies are not religious generally (as in not referring to a particular faith). I tend to chose moral stories to read to the children with a time for quiet private reflection at the end on whatever the moral of the story was. The exception to this is if I given the Easter or Diwali assembly to do - in that instance I would present it as this is what Christians/Sikhs believe. Not this is what we think/believe.

COllective worship is ridiculous to rational people because it's attempting to communicate with something that simply isn't there. It may be a legal requirement (ans I am a BHA member beavering away to get the law changed etc) but that won't stop me explaining to DS that it's daft but he will just have to sit though it quietly and politely cos it isn't nice to interrupt things that are important to other people even if they are stupid.
But the impression I got from the OP was that one particular teacher had instigated the prayer saying for his/her particular class, which would need investingating and almost certainly complaining about. It is not a teacher's job to peddle crap to children in this way.

i hope you all recognise that you only ever hear bad stories on here don't you?!

i mean 'aibu to be happy with the levels of collective worship at my dc's school' is hardly going to happen is it?!

the stories that you are telling me are OBVIOUSLY wrong - i would most definitely complain, possibly think about removing my child from that school if i felt strongly enough about it.

also, not ALL non-religious schools do hymns and jesus type prayers. again, this is not something that is reported on, i mean why would you?

my point to you all was actually

1, as far as i can see if you don't agree with the standard collective worship, there is no point in being snippy about the school. it is required of them.

2, it seems like the op's school is acting within the law set out for them.

3, you can get around this by removing them.

4, collective worship will not brainwash your child (if done in the guidelines set out by the law). children believe in all sorts of things without you having to believe in them. it is their choice and they are likely to believe if their friends do, if your parents do, if you do etc. also, i believed at that age and it made the world much easier to understand in terms of death and loss. it isn't exactly the worst thing in the world to say a prayer is it?

none of you have answered my christmas question either. that speaks volumes

(btw i don't get the angels on pin head thing, sorry am being thick)