I found out this morning that my children have been saying prayers before lunch...

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We deliberately chose a non-church school (most of the local schools to us are church schools) as we are not religious and did not want our children educated in this way. In fact it is a community school.

But today DS told us that they say prayers before they go for lunch. DD (who is now in the juniors, so was there for 3 years) confirmed this... She knew the words off by heart.

Now I am not happy (at all) about this, and neither is DH.

My question is should I complain?

If you have collective worship it stands to reason that you are worshipping God (broadly Christian collective worship)this means prayers and hymns. I go to a lot of schools and they all do it. If you are going to sing hymns you need to practise them. Because it is the law DCs can be withdrawn from assembly and RE lessons. They are not forced to pray but they are expected to sit quietly.
To understand art, literature and history you need to have an understanding of the Bible.

I do honestly wonder about the religious tolerance thing and religious people. SUrely if you subscribe to one lot you think that's the myth system that's right and, deep down, that all the other ones are wrong. Yet so many religious people seem to at least pay lip service to the idea that other people's imaginary friends are OK with comments like, at least you believe in 'something' - and many religious people will say that it's all the same 'something' in the end. This bemuses me and has done frequently on threads like these, because it seems to me (and I am actually trying not to be rude) that people who say that there 'is soemthing' always seem to frame it in the myths they learned in childhood yet these myths make no more sense than any other. So what makes you pick a particular one (which, if it's one of the major religions, is always going to come with a lot of horrible baggage such as misogyny, homophobia, racism, tolerance of slavery) instead of inventing a nice new one?

I don't think it is a question of inventing a new one-if you study all the major religions they have a lot in common.
It doesn't have any bearing on collective worship in schools-in the UK, state and the church are intertwined, the Prime Minister appoints bishops, the Queen is the head of the Cof E etc. State schools have the state religion. It won't change until church and state separate and we become a secular society. People are entirely confused, they think that if their DC doesn't go to a church school they go to a secular school. All it means is that they go to a non denominational school.

Piscesmoon: Yeah, a lot in commoon, generally misogyny, homophobia and genocide...

I wouldn't actually call myself a religious person, solidgoldbrass. They are all open to misuse, bigots and fanatics. It isn't relevant to the argument. Schools won't be secular until Britain is secular-you can join the secular society and campaign for it.
I am not sure that I can spell it but schools will be broadly Christian in ethos until you get Disestablishmentarianism.
I think that a warning should come with school enrolments so that parents aren't taken by surprise.

Justabout: Thanks, that does sort of make sense.
Piscesmoon: wasn't accusing you of being religious - and agree with you about school enrolments. Am slightly prepared for trouble when DS starts school (I posted about this at the time) as the school prospectus did have a comment about 'bringing children to a concept of a loving god' (it's definitely not a faith school).

Well, yeah, I will be busy explaining to him that not everyone finds a concept of any kind of god either believable or necessary. I was just a bit at it being in the prospectus of a non-faith school, even given the government requirements for a daily dose of superstition to be inflicted on pupils.

I just remain impotently outraged that my children can't participate fully in the life of a state school without also taking part in Christian worship. I can't understand why everybody isn't equally outraged by this! Yes, I could withdraw them, but why should I? Why should they be the ones to miss out on the entirely beneficial group activity of an assembly? Why shouldn't the parents who want their children to say Christian prayers say them with their children outside school?

And this isn't about me not wanting my children to learn about Christianity - I do. I just don't want them to do it at school!

If everyone was outraged by it they would join the secular society-see this page
People complain but they don't actually do anything. I like the fact that they have it in school so it isn't something I would wish to campaign for, but if you don't want collective worship in school you could do something positive.
I don't know why it comes as a shock to people-if they think back to their own school days they must have sung hymns, had prayers and Bible readings etc. It hasn't changed greatly. Church schools will have the vicar in on a regular basis, will go to church for special occasions and may well have prayers several times a day as an extra to non church schools. The big mistake is imagining that if it isn't a church school it is entirely secular. A lot will depend on the Head and how they interpret the education act.

You need to read the 1988 Education Act. Religion isn't left out of school, there are lots of rules and it also sets out how much of it has to be Christian.If a school wants to opt out because the DCs are of a different religion they have proceedures-they can't just do it

I know they can't and I think that's wrong. I think there should be a change in the law.

I feel that children should learn about all sorts of religion and cultures, it's really interesting but I don't want him to have to take part in worship at school. I think that's fair and makes sense.

'I think that's fair and makes sense.'

I would agree but it isn't the way it works.It really all goes back to Henry VIII!!
C of E is the state religion. Yesterday changes to the monarchy were in the news, I don't think that there will be any difficulty putting women on an equal footing to men but the monarch marrying a Catholic will be much trickier, those against it were already lining up!

Back to the wind and other invisible forces, spaghetti monsters et al, I would like to ask the anti-prayer posters, how do you give your child a SENSE OF WONDER? Haven't you ever felt wonder at the way things work (or despair at the way they don't work) and needed to say to your children we don't really understand everything but life can be amazing, and awful too?
I'm sure you do feel wonder at lots of things - prayer is just a rather good way of channelling that emotion in small children. The longer we can behave like them the better imo.

The world is FULL of wonder - human achievement, the changing seasons, birth, growth, death.....why do we need any more than that?

I am anti prayer to a God - I am all in favour of quiet contemplation and thankfulness. I just don't see why it has to include an omnipotent being.

We plough the fields and scatter
The good seed on the land
He sends the snow in winter
The warmth to swell the grain
But it is fed and watered by God's Almighty Hand
Good Gifts all around us
Are sent from Heaven above
So thank the Lord, thank the Lord
For all His Love

A typical christian hymn - do you object to sentiments therein, praise, wonder, acceptance of seasons, survival of human race through time? very interested to hear ops' views.

(P.S. not sure whether I got the words completely right but still...do love singing it on MN)

But WHO are you THANKING CONTEMPLATING seeker? do understand your viewpoint, just think you are making things more complicated than they are. Children see the world in symbols and stories, and it's possible for stories not to be indoctrination.

Oh think I missed out the refreshing rain.

"But Aunty Swanriver, you know that there are people starving in Africa? Why doesn't Almighty God water their crops too?"

In Africa, people are quite often, religious.

Does that mean you don't want your five year old to be thankful for the food on HIS table? It didn't just appear there after all.

Of course not. I want them to be thankful to the people who planted it, grew it, harvested it, processed it and cooked it. And, actually, to be aware of the animal that they are eating (if they meat eaters)

But I would be interested in how you would answer that question. It is possible,if difficult, for a non-religious person to answer in terms of climate, war, commercial interests, population movements, sheer bad luck and so on. It must be absolutely impossible for a believer in an omnipotent benevolent God to answer.

I am not theologically trained, I cannot quote you any passages from the Bible or philosphical arguments from "great" christian apologists.
But if you consider the famine, pestilience and misery of the human condition you may also consider that not many human societies WERE or are secular. In fact the better off we are (you might put this down to "education")as a society the more likely we are to be secular.
That is my answer and it is unsupported by any specialist academic learning or link, merely an opinion after years of probably defective education.
All the best, and I really don't want to quarrel. I think there is terrible suffering in the world, to our nearest and dearest as well as in Africa.
You may have to post on a spirituality thread to get a proper answer.