At what stage should I consider moving DS down a year or taking him out of school? - Long and not very original or interesting I'm afraid.

[bran]

DS started in reception this year. I like the school and his teacher, but he's having problems that are getting worse. He won't be five until June, he is the youngest by 2 months, and in his class of 12 at least 7 children will have turned 5 by the end of November. He was at pre-school at the same school from January and took nearly half a term to settle there, but his unsettlement was mostly expressed as being quiet or miserable.

Now he's in reception his behaviour both in school and out is sometimes appalling. The best his teacher ever says when I pick him up is that he had an ok day but didn't listen, mostly I get to hear about the name-calling, hitting, kicking and how many time outs he's had. He's cheeky to the teacher and TA (he calls them poo-poo and stupid which fortunately is the worst that he knows). When I talk to him about his behaviour or discipline him he spits, kicks, bites and occasionally deliberately wets himself. Coming home from school today was a new low, involving spitting at passers-by and wetting himself. His teacher is getting a bit pissed off because he's teaching the other kids bad habbits.

The cause of the behaviour is a bit of a mystery and it's getting worse. His teacher implies that it's because DH works abroad during the week, DH thinks it's the school's fault (although he's never met DS's teacher) except for today when I spoke to him on the phone when he implied it was my fault. I think that DS is young for his age, very active and not at all academic and is simply not capable of sitting still and concentrating for such a long day (it's 9-4), although DH being away doesn't help at all. TBH I had my doubts about the whole system, but when you're in a foreign country you tend to go with the norm and the British people I know don't seem to have had any lasting damage done by starting school early.

When we were in Dublin for half term last week DS reverted back to his usual happy, chatty self, constantly on the go and doing things. He played beautifully with other kids like he used to. There were no tantrums or even much in the way of usage of the word "poo" except when he was tired just before bed. It made me realise just how much school has changed him for the worse, and how unhappy he seems most of the time. I suggested to his teacher that he should drop back to pre-school and she seemed outraged and implied that it would be very damaging for him, but I don't see how it could be worse than it is now.

How long should I wait before I make a decision about this? My instinct is to ask to meet the head of pre-school and his teacher this week but I think logically I should probably leave it to the end of term and see how it goes.

Could you talk to the school about him doing part time, mornings only for the next half term and then review it then?

9-4 is a very long time. Is this in the UK? That's way over the required amount of time.

He sounds like a normal little boy who is suffering as a result of the totally innappropriate system we have in this country of forcing children into formal education far too early. It is worse for boys than girls.

Trouble is, it is much harder now to keep your child back a year because there is no flexibility in the system.

I feel really sorry for him, and you, but don't have any helpful advice I am afraid.

Could you home ed for a year?

How difficult would it be to reapply for reception in a year's time?

He sounds very unhappy and overtired.

Bran- as you talk about a class of 12 and a 9-4 day I am guessing this is a private school?

He is obviously not happy; what choices do you have? Is this the right environment for him? What sort of foundation curriculum are they following? A class of 12 means there is nowhere to hide literally.

He shouldn't be having to sit still and concentrate for very long if they are offering a play based curriculum..

tell me a little more

9-4 is a long day, especially when he's so young. dd does 9-3.10 and that's plenty for her! could you do half days for a while? How big is the reception class, it it mostly play based?
you don't legally have to send him to school yet, what would happen if you took him out for this year - is that an option? I did consider it for dd but she'd have started straight in yr 1, so I didn't in the end. she struggled as well as she's one of the youngest - and young for her age. Things are better now but she still struggles with the work - she's much more into playing!

sorry - just reread and realised he's in a class of 12. It sounds intense for his age, he should still be mostly playing.

Yes, it is UK. He was doing almost the same hours in pre-school (he had a half-day on Wednesdays) and didn't seem too bothered by it, but he's not coping at all now. I think it's the workload that he's not up to really.

My relatives in Dublin were really shocked at the long day. Most kids there seem to do a half-day or a short day until they are about 7 (I can't remember that far back in my school-days, I'm very, very old ). Even when they are older the day is usually 9-3, sometimes with a half day once a week. When I was in secondary school I did 9-4 with a half-day on Wednesdays, so I wasn't doing the hours that he's doing now even when I was a teenager.

I'll ask about half-days, but they did say in the "moving to reception" info session that all children would be doing full days. I wonder if it might be better for him to do a short week, he won't feel as different to the other kids if he does that.

In my experience, private schools tend to be more formal in Reception than state schools (I've worked in both).

If the other posters are right, and your ds is at a private school, is it an option to move him to a state school with a larger class, and a more play based curriculum?

3littlefrogs - I very much doubt that she would be able to apply for Reception in a year's time, although there can be a little more flexibility in private schools. Apart from Leeds and Bradford (I think), I don't know any other Local Authorities in the UK who have a policy of taking children out of their chronological yeargroup.

Poor DS. He sounds like my DS when he is tired. Any chance you could give it the first term to see if it gets any easier for him when he starts to 'get used to it?'

My Ds is still pre school so I have no real idea but that would be my first thoughts if it were my ds.

Workload in reception What sort of institution place is this?

Bran, is this private or state?

There really shouldn't be any "workload in Reception.

Pre-school was probably play-based (or at least it should have been), so the long hours were ok. However, if he's in a more formal environment, this could be what's causing him problems.

If he's at a state school, then you can insist on him doing half days. You simply turn up every day at lunch time to pick him up! Obviously it's better if it has been discussed and agreed with the school, but even if they raise objections, they cannot stop you from taking him home.

Re: part time or short week. I would really recommend him going in every day, for a shorter day, rather than having a long gap.

x posted with Robinpud

You've said what I would have said anyway Littlefish.. as often you do.

Bran- is moving schools an option?

Sorry, crossed with loads of people, I'm a slow typist.

It is private, there's a long and rather dull back story about how he ended up there, but I do like the school on the whole. He definitely won't get into a state school now, all our local schools are over-subscribed.

I'm reluctant to take him out of school completely as he is an extreme extrovert, one of the reasons that he moved to this school for pre-school is that there were very few children his age at nursery and he was bored. He simply can't go a whole day without being around other children, plus I definitely don't have the right personality to home-school.

There is a possiblity that we will be moving to Dublin next summer, otherwise we will move during summer 2010, so he would go into the Irish system from then. They are a bit more flexible about cut-off ages so he could go into the year below his age group without too much fuss (I think) and even if he couldn't the day would be shorter.

Go, on bore me then Bran.. I am looking for diversions..

It does sound like it would take a huge adjustment on both his and the school's part to make things better. I'm not aying that it can't be done.. but..

Bran, I would put his name on the state schools, at least then he is on the waiting list if this school doesnt work for him.

You then might have the option.

The pre-school was very play based, it's Montessori and once DS got into the swing of it he really loved it because he could pick what he wanted to do. I think there is still some play but reception seems much more formal and academic than I expected. I'm not sure how much of this is driven by them having to follow educational guidelines and how much is to meet the standards of the parents (the school is in Canary Wharf and I really like all the parents I've met, but they are quite driven and high-achieving).

He gets a homework worksheet every week, the last one was four sets of faces and he had to write "THE SAME" under the identical ones and "DIFFERENT" under the non-identical. I don't know how much the other kids can do, but all that DS can managed is to trace over the first letter of the word if I do it in dots first. He gets very anxious about his homework sheets, so I suspect that he is quite far behind the others when they do similar stuff in class. He was very early to talk but a little late in just about everything else especially gross and fine motor skills (and potty training ). His teacher sometimes says that he was very good at a particular activity, and it's always something that doesn't need pencil control or quiet concentration.

That is the most appalling homework task i have ever heard of Bran. truts me I've seen a lot of shite in my time. this is the shitest.

If you are paying for that sort of " teaching" you are being conned.. big time

He is being short changed. He is a boy who needs a proper play based environment where he can succeed, not this hot house for potential top fund managers..

I can't type, but I do know my stuff.. really!

A formal environment will certainly not be following educational guidelines, and will have everything to do with parental expectation, and the school's desire for good SATS results . The school should be following the Early Years Foundation Stage which calls for practitioners to provide open ended, play based, problem solving, exploratory experiences for children so that they can learn through play. High quality phonics and numeracy work can be achieved through very short targetted activities, and also through play. It doesn't sound like the school is following these guidelines at all.

The homework sheet you've talked about is completely inappropriate. If he ever has to do stuff like that again, by all means talk to him about things that are the same/different (without the sheet), but asking him to write down a word which he can't read, or sound out is a complete waste of time and shouldn't have been given as homework.

In fact, as far as I'm concerned, all homework for Foundation and KS1 children (apart from reading/phonics) is a complete waste of time.

I really think that you need to get in and talk to the headteacher and classteacher as soon as you can to look for solutions. He sounds like a very unhappy, frustrated little boy and you sound like a very worried, very loving mother who needs now to look at all the signals being given out, and bite the bullet.

x again Robinpud (were we separated at birth?)

Yes, that is the worst homework sheet so far. Some of them have been fine. He really enjoyed the one where he had to cut out pictures of food and stick them onto one sheet for healthy and another for not healthy. (I was all for having a third sheet for healthy in moderation, but he was having none of it. )

It really is a hot house for fund managers I suspect, and I didn't expect it to be, pre-school wasn't like this. The talk was all about personal development at their own speed, and the older kids in the school are charming, confident and very happy.

We would have got a place at the local C of E school as DH was chair of the PCC at the time that we would have applied, but I didn't want him to move school and then move again when we go to Dublin. I still don't really. I'm pretty sure that there's little point in wait-listing him for any of the state schools, I know for sure that there are lots of kids who have had to go to school quite a long way away as even the schools with a poor reputation are over-subscribed. This is because a lot of families used to leave the area before their children were school age, but an unusual number are now staying instead so there is an unforseen rise in the numbers of children in reception. Even DS's school has had to add an extra reception class this year.

I think you are my nicer, kind, far more diplomatic alter ego.. one who isn't spending her half term evenings planning ad freeting about a wretched observation on the first day back.

Yes, everything Littlefish has said.

Your ds sounds entirely normal; just furstrated by his environment. Nothing that can't be changed, but you will have to get the school to see that they will have to adapt to his needs. Surely a class of 12 enables a teacher to do that quite easily?

I would be very concerned about a four yr old being given work sheets like the one you have described TBH. It is very sad that he is already anxious about his work load.

IME state schools are better up to the age of about 7 - then, you can reconsider if you feel you want to go down the private route.

I hope you manage to find a solution.

Is the LA not obliged to offer him a place at a state school?

Don't under estimate the adaptability of young children; at this stage he isn't actually making friendships that will be wrenched apart by a move to Dublin. He needs to be happy now.

That sounds advanced for the first week in reception. My DD is the same age as him (5 in May) and still in nursery - will go into reception in January. They are not doing things like that in the reception class. DD joins them for phonics work - and she comes home with one of those jolly phonics sheets with the picture and letters on.

Her best friend (January birthday) is in the reception class and just has a sounds book to practice and a reading book with no words in.

I think drawing lines between the pairs might have been a bit more feasible. Have recollections of DS doing this although that must have been Y1 because he didn't have homework (only reading) in YR.