At what stage should I consider moving DS down a year or taking him out of school? - Long and not very original or interesting I'm afraid.

[bran]

DS started in reception this year. I like the school and his teacher, but he's having problems that are getting worse. He won't be five until June, he is the youngest by 2 months, and in his class of 12 at least 7 children will have turned 5 by the end of November. He was at pre-school at the same school from January and took nearly half a term to settle there, but his unsettlement was mostly expressed as being quiet or miserable.

Now he's in reception his behaviour both in school and out is sometimes appalling. The best his teacher ever says when I pick him up is that he had an ok day but didn't listen, mostly I get to hear about the name-calling, hitting, kicking and how many time outs he's had. He's cheeky to the teacher and TA (he calls them poo-poo and stupid which fortunately is the worst that he knows). When I talk to him about his behaviour or discipline him he spits, kicks, bites and occasionally deliberately wets himself. Coming home from school today was a new low, involving spitting at passers-by and wetting himself. His teacher is getting a bit pissed off because he's teaching the other kids bad habbits.

The cause of the behaviour is a bit of a mystery and it's getting worse. His teacher implies that it's because DH works abroad during the week, DH thinks it's the school's fault (although he's never met DS's teacher) except for today when I spoke to him on the phone when he implied it was my fault. I think that DS is young for his age, very active and not at all academic and is simply not capable of sitting still and concentrating for such a long day (it's 9-4), although DH being away doesn't help at all. TBH I had my doubts about the whole system, but when you're in a foreign country you tend to go with the norm and the British people I know don't seem to have had any lasting damage done by starting school early.

When we were in Dublin for half term last week DS reverted back to his usual happy, chatty self, constantly on the go and doing things. He played beautifully with other kids like he used to. There were no tantrums or even much in the way of usage of the word "poo" except when he was tired just before bed. It made me realise just how much school has changed him for the worse, and how unhappy he seems most of the time. I suggested to his teacher that he should drop back to pre-school and she seemed outraged and implied that it would be very damaging for him, but I don't see how it could be worse than it is now.

How long should I wait before I make a decision about this? My instinct is to ask to meet the head of pre-school and his teacher this week but I think logically I should probably leave it to the end of term and see how it goes.

I think you'll struggle to find an LEA flexile enough to allow him into Reception then though, the main exceptions would be cases of statemented SEN. I really think your basic isssue is that the current shcool deos not suit him and isnlt adaptign to hsi needs , another could eb a very differnet experinece and he could even go part time, or not at all, until next Easter.

As far as I know, children born in a particular year all enter school age in the same year. e.g 1st September - 31st August 2003 will be the Reception cohort for 2008, and therefore, the Year 1 cohort for 2009. Therefore, your ds would go into Y1 in the term after he's 5, but others will be older. However, this is in the State System.

From what I've read on here, some private schools are a little more flexible on their dates and children have done an additional year in Reception.

How interesting to hear that others are having difficulties in the class. I hope that helps you feel more positive that it's not just your ds. Did the other parents say that they would also be speaking to the school?

Robinpud is right, but if he was in the state system your ds would go into Year 1 in September 2009 and not Reception.

It's an independent school though, are they still bound by the rules of the local LEA? I'm just wondering if they say that it's impossible to put him back down in pre-school (and they haven't yet), whether it would be because it's genuinely not allowed or because they don't want to.

No they're not bound by LEA but they can apply their own "rules" instead.

Littlefish, one mother that I spoke to has a son who is 2 months older than DS. They are very good friends as they went to nursery together, so have known each other since before they were two. I was going to speak to her before half term at picking up time but she was heavily pregnant and just looked so tired so I didn't bring it up. When I spoke to her today she said that she has had concerns for a while and her DS's behaviour has deteriorated badly but (like me) she wasn't sure whether this was normal when starting reception. She also has concerns about the level and frequency of discipline. I'm not sure what she's going to do about it, I suspect that she will also be asking for a meeting fairly soon. I said I'd let her know the outcome of my meeting.

It will be because they don't want to, rather than because they can't Bran. Howevever, they may then want him to miss Reception out and go straight into yr 1 unless you can persuade them to let him start Reception a whole year late. Any news on your move to Dublin?

I had a friend whose child attends a state school. His birthday is in July, so he was going to be be 4 and 1 month when he started in Reception.

Rather than have him start as usual in the September, she made a decision to keep him at his private nursery until Christmas and then move him into Reception after he'd done that additional term.

He settled really well and she's pleased with her decision.

I really hope the other mum asks for that meeting soon Bran - it always helps when there are concerns coming from a couple of different sources.

It does sound like the teacher may not be meeting all the needs of the children in her class, for whatever reasons. At the meeting, ensure that she gets to speak, not through the Hof F. I would be interested in hearing which activities she finds most engage your ds..how he reacts to praise and postive reinforcement etc. I think the urriculum and the style of classroom management are the issues that need unpicking. Sort them out and I think ds will be fine.

I need to rush out to work but very quickly - you are paying this school so they need to sort things out. They should be differentiating the curriculum for your son and they need to find positive ways of improving his behaviour. A class of 12 is SO easy compared to a class of 30!

However, it does seem that he is unhappy there and a state (or other private) school could suit him better. I would definitely have another look at all your options - schools that were full may now have places and if there are other private schools in your area, they may be better. And don't worry about moving him twice - if he's unhappy he needs to move now, not have a miserable year before moving back to Ireland. Definitely look at the state schools - if you don't ask you definitely don't get - the worst that can happen is they don't have places, but a school somewhere will - and if it's only for a year you don't need to worry about SATS results, just about whether your son will be happy and behave and learn reasonably well for that year. If he was at state school there's a high chance he'd be part time at the moment as well.

Homework for 4 year olds is not acceptable other than some reading and stuff like "find some things in your house that are square" or something like that that you can help him with.

Good luck with the meeting tomorrow Bran. Let us know how you get on.

How did it go?

Give me a chance to calm down and then chat to DH and I'll get back to you. (You may correctly assume from this that it did NOT go well. )

Oh I'm sorry Bran.

Go and have a large glass of wine and then update us.

I'm going out but I'll be back late tonight.

Oh dear Bran.
I'm coming to London tomorrow- want me to sort them out for you?

I'm not ignoring you, I promise. I just spent hours talking to DH last night and then I was exhausted and went to bed early. Today I've been looking after DS (who is currently loudly soaking the bathroom floor), once he's in bed I'll be back. (I've almost stopped my lip quivering when I talk about it, so I'm coming to terms with it.)

Oh bran. Sorry it's not gone well.

Sounds ominous bran.

Right! Well the meeting started, I explained that DS was unhappy and his behaviour was deteriorating and I felt it was because he was unable to cope with the hours/need to keep still and quiet/constant discipline and just generally because he's a young 4 yr old and not a 5 yr old. The head of foundation said that in fact DS was a very happy child, and she was surprised that I would think otherwise. (Brace yourselves, that was the first of very, very many s.)

So, I asked his teacher if that was her experience with him in class. She felt that he was might be happy, but naughty and needed to learn to fit in and follow rules. Much discussion followed about relative happiness at the end of which we all agreed that heart-broken sobbing was not a sign of happiness. They did seem genuinely sorry that he was so sad, and I had to deflect a few comments about why I hadn't brought this up sooner.

I then had a long lecture about teaching methods, and why the way they did things was the best way for all children to learn (again with reference to DS learning to fit in with the others). It would have been longer but I interrupted to point out there was no need to explain it in such detail to me as my understanding was unlikely to make much difference to DS's happiness. (I was getting a little strident by this stage.)

I reiterated that I felt that DS was too young for the teaching format, and that I felt that he should be either allowed to move back to pre-school or to shorten his hours. mm22bys will be surprised to hear that all the other children, including several that are much younger ( they can't be much younger as DS is a mid-June birthday) are settling well and not finding the hours or concentration levels at all difficult to cope with.

So we left the meeting with a 3-way ultimatum from me, first choice for DS to move down to pre-school, second choice for him to do half-days and third choice for him to do 3 full-days a week while I looked for a new school for him.

Telephone conversation with headmistress to follow (complete with a huge number of and a few ). I must have something to eat and a cup of tea first.

Oh good, I get to be the first to say:

"get him away from these people!"

Will return shortly to read conversation with head.

Here is confirmation re the school starting age.

www.dcsf.gov.uk/schoolattendance/faq/#faq9

I'm able to year-defer my August-born (3.2)and start him in 2010 in Bradford (touch wood). When I was unsure of the position, I considered the independent sector. To my surprise the first independent school I visited was much less flexible than the state sector! They looked at me as if I was from a different planet and talked at length about the 11+.

and you've paid for these people!!!! When are they going to realise that they are individuals and being happy and learning social skills is what is important!

Good for you for keeing your cool and not pulling him out there and then!

Hello, ive read the beginning and end of this thread, I think another school sounds like the best option for your ds, your son is not fitting the schools box
Please be aware though that theres some sort of issue with secondary schools if your child moves up/down a year.

Sorry, Arc Royal is parked outside and they just did the most amazing firework display, it appears that they are also very, very happy that DS has left that school. At least I think it's Arc Royal, one battleship looks much the same as another to me.

Let me try and get this out without my blood pressure blowing the top of my head off.

Later that evening the headmistress phone me. She also didn't quite understand what my problem was, so I gave another summary. (The one good thing about talking about this so much is that I can now be quite pithy about the issue.) So then followed the oddest conversation I've had for a while, you know one of those ones where you start out thinking that everyone is reasonable and then part way through you realise that one of you is completely barking.

She said that it wasn't possible for any of my options to happen, that the syllabus was very carefully set up to suit every child and that DS would learn to fit in (I think 'learn to fit in' is some sort of school motto ). Again there was mention of every other child being perfectly fine once they'd settled, and a strong impression given that I am the first parent ever to question hours and syllabus.

When pressed as to why it wasn't possible for him to move down or do short days she said it couldn't be done because it was unconstitutional (yes, really, her word). A school consitution cannot be overturned and the school reduced to chaos to meet the needs of one parent (note: no mention of the needs of a child). She kept saying "but you knew and accepted the constitution when you signed him up with the school", to which I replied that I hadn't known then that he would be unhappy and need a little flexibility or that non-academic personality types, or developmentally young children could not be catered for.

(This next bit is when my blood pressure starts to shoot up.) At around this stage she said that the school would endeavour to offer DS support to overcome his anti-social behaviour, and would try to help us as parents find the root cause. I said that easing off the pressure and letting him be more active would probably result in a dramatic improvement in his behaviour. She said that this sort of severe emotional disturbance was unlikely to be caused by moving from pre-school to reception. I'm not very good at understanding sub-text so I'm not sure whether she was hinting at some undiagnosed medical or personality problem or whether she meant his homelife was unsuitable.

At this stage I was thinking that he had moved pretty rapidly from a happy, cheerful child in my afternoon meeting to severely emotionally disturbed in only a couple of hours, which must surely be some sort of record.

I pointed out that he had been perfectly fine during half-term and during the past week when he wasn't attending school. She said "Oh yes of course, I'm sure he must be fine when he's at home with you, but you must have all these problems whenever he's with a group of children." I pointed out that he had just done two terms at pre-school of the same school without any behavioural problems apart from having trouble sitting still during circle time. She said that something must have happened over the summer to cause a change like this.

Anyway, the conversation was going nowhere, so I told her I'd discuss the situation with DH and he would probably want to talk to her too, knowing that I would never let DS cross their threashold again.

UMM, the secondary school thing was mentioned quite a bit, but it's not relevant to DS as he will be going to secondary school in Dublin, most likely my old school. They don't give a rat's fart about exact age there.

I am , that the HM could lie through her teeth like that

Congratulations on your decision. I think that school would have put your child off school for life though doubtless it would have worked fine for my elder child (not my younger).

Don't make any judgments about whether he is academic yet, as others have said. There's more than one way to be academic.