At what stage should I consider moving DS down a year or taking him out of school? - Long and not very original or interesting I'm afraid.

[bran]

DS started in reception this year. I like the school and his teacher, but he's having problems that are getting worse. He won't be five until June, he is the youngest by 2 months, and in his class of 12 at least 7 children will have turned 5 by the end of November. He was at pre-school at the same school from January and took nearly half a term to settle there, but his unsettlement was mostly expressed as being quiet or miserable.

Now he's in reception his behaviour both in school and out is sometimes appalling. The best his teacher ever says when I pick him up is that he had an ok day but didn't listen, mostly I get to hear about the name-calling, hitting, kicking and how many time outs he's had. He's cheeky to the teacher and TA (he calls them poo-poo and stupid which fortunately is the worst that he knows). When I talk to him about his behaviour or discipline him he spits, kicks, bites and occasionally deliberately wets himself. Coming home from school today was a new low, involving spitting at passers-by and wetting himself. His teacher is getting a bit pissed off because he's teaching the other kids bad habbits.

The cause of the behaviour is a bit of a mystery and it's getting worse. His teacher implies that it's because DH works abroad during the week, DH thinks it's the school's fault (although he's never met DS's teacher) except for today when I spoke to him on the phone when he implied it was my fault. I think that DS is young for his age, very active and not at all academic and is simply not capable of sitting still and concentrating for such a long day (it's 9-4), although DH being away doesn't help at all. TBH I had my doubts about the whole system, but when you're in a foreign country you tend to go with the norm and the British people I know don't seem to have had any lasting damage done by starting school early.

When we were in Dublin for half term last week DS reverted back to his usual happy, chatty self, constantly on the go and doing things. He played beautifully with other kids like he used to. There were no tantrums or even much in the way of usage of the word "poo" except when he was tired just before bed. It made me realise just how much school has changed him for the worse, and how unhappy he seems most of the time. I suggested to his teacher that he should drop back to pre-school and she seemed outraged and implied that it would be very damaging for him, but I don't see how it could be worse than it is now.

How long should I wait before I make a decision about this? My instinct is to ask to meet the head of pre-school and his teacher this week but I think logically I should probably leave it to the end of term and see how it goes.

Meant first term not first week.

Even if you can't switch to a state school, is it possible to look at other private schools? My DS goes to one and has just brought home his first homework sheet - to write about his favourite toy - and he's in Yr 1. No homework at all in Reception apart from reading, and this year they've only added 10 spellings a week - three letter cvc words so not too demanding!

Not all private schools are as dire as yours sounds so definitely worth shopping around.

When will you know about the move to Dublin?

If you are definitely going next summer, then I would be tempted to take him out of school, put him back into the lovely Montessori pre-school, who will be able to take him until he's 5 I suspect.

In fact, even if you're not definitely going next summer, I would be tempted to do that .

I also agree with Robinpud that with a class of 12, the teacher must be able to provide a more appropriate curriculum for him.

12 is an absolute doddle to teach! The teacher is also teaching a group of children who are (probably) bright, with good support at home, and (usually) well behaved (as long as the curriculum is appropriate).

That sort of class is like a treasure chest! The sort of class that a teacher can do magical, risky, creative, imaginative things with. I agree with Robinpud that it's really lazy teaching to go down the formal route.

I agree with 3littlefrogs about re-considering later on.

He needs to be happy NOW. These early years will form the basis of his attitude to learning for the rest of his life. I'm sorry if that sounds meladromatic melodramatic (sp?) but Early Years Education is just so important to get right.

Bran that school sounds quite "hot housy" and unusual, maybe not surprisingly if it is in Canary Wharf (but hindsight is a wonderful thing and I don't mean to criticise you.) It seems to me it would only suit the most mature and most biddable end of the spectrum - so fine for some kids but definitely not fine for others.

He would get a place robinpud, but Tower Hamlets is a big LA and I know of a couple of children who live close to me and have to travel a long way to go to school, which is no fun in rush hour in central London.

You're right about him needing to be happy now I think, I worry that this will put him off school for life. If it weren't for the fact that we are trying to adopt again I would consider moving to Dublin now and starting him in a pre-school there. Although he might see even less of DH if we did that (he works abroad 4 days a week and in London 1 day a week, for different companies so he can't do more days here).

Sorry - what is it that you like about the school?, just re-read your posts

Bran, if that homework is typical of the workload I'd say it was inappropriate for Reception, especially so early in the year. Most kids that age would be expected to colour the matching pairs a particular colour for example, but not write. Even if they state writing there is no reason you cannot ask to differentiate the task.

Maybe this school is less than ideal for him. Would they even let him repeat a year ? It can cause problems with sports later on if they are out of age group and may not even be an issue in another environment.

You're so right Grammaticus. I absolutely didn't mean to criticise Bran's choices. Sorry if you feel got at Bran .

Goodness me Bran, you have got a lot on your plate, haven't you!

Is your ds aware of the adoption plans?

I can see why Bran made her decision, but can also see that perhaps this isn't the right place for ds right now. Can the school show the necessary flexibility or do they percieve it as Bran's problem and not theirs?

I can understand that travelling in rush hour is less than satisfactory, so my advice would be to talk to the Head about the curriculum being offered, and ways of engaging ds as an immediate priority.
I would also as others have suggested look at other local schools, state and private and see what might be an alternative.

God this sounds awful, honest to God, either move him or take him out. I cannot imagine a less appropriate manner of treating a 4 year old boy. He'd be much much better off at a state primary.

I think the teacher's attitude sounds very strange. What is her strategy when your son hits/kicks etc. Does she have any ideas what triggers this? (e.g. he is angry/bored/overloaded/frustrated). Has she suggested any coping strategies for when he feels like kicking/hitting? (tell the teacher how he feels/go and do a calming activity?). There is definitely a place for time out (a time to retreat from the fray and gather yourself together), but badly used its worse than useless.

Unless your DH suddenly started working abroad when your son started school (if he did I think that would be very unsettling), its unlikely that that is the main reason for his behaviour.

More cross-posting.

Littlefish - it's the same school, he was at pre-school there until he moved to reception, I was thinking of moving him back down to pre-school.

Grammaticus - I don't think they really intend it to be a "hot house" style school, it may well be driven by the standards of the other children in the class. Even if his teacher doesn't expect DS to be doing what the others are doing he may be getting frustrated with himself.

There was another independent school that I really liked, but they only took children from the Sept after they turned 3 and he wasn't even potty trained then. All the other schools that I visited did seem to be repellently concerned with their SATs (this school never mentioned them at all) and getting the 'right' children in.

bran, ask locally about the Lyceum. You'd have to get him into the City which you might not wish to consider, but I have heard generally very positive things about this school.
Have to agree - your description of the work your ds is doing does not sound much cop Dd is in a Yr1 class of proper mischiefs, herself no slouch on this front, and they had a fabulous play-based Reception Year. Shame we are that bit too far across the water tbh

Gosh, I'm so slow, more cross-posting.

MP - DH started working abroad in March (on a 3-month contract that show no sign of ending ) when DS was still in pre-school and it didn't seem affect DS's shool behaviour one bit. They do use a lot of time out for DS, but so do I, it works very well for him. Today, though, he missed all of one playtime having a time out which I think is a bit much, usually it's less than 5 minutes outside the classroom door.

I don't feel got at at all I chose this school because I wanted an un-hurried child-centred education for ds and this school really did come across that way, and the pre-school part was just as I expected it to be and once DS had settled there he really blossomed. He was really quite annoyed that he had to break for summer and miss his friends (some of them go year round). At pre-school I could pick him up from the play area anytime between 3.30 and 4 and he used to sob if I got there too early and interrupted his play time. It's just gone horribly pear-shaped this term and I'm trying to put my finger on why and what I can do about it.

Littlefish - DS has been aware of adoption plans for ages as our SW insisted we tell him at the start of the assessment (about 14 months ago). He's very keen, he was asking for a brother or sister before we told him we were going to adopt again, but he understands that it takes a long time "like an oak tree from an acorn".

Bran - just to be clear - you do not need to educate him until the term after his 5th birthday. This is the law.

The Government has briefed Sir Jim Rose to produce a report on the primary school system. The interim report is due out in the next fortnight. A specific part of the brief was to ask Sir Jim to consider more flexible options for educating summer-borns. The UK Government itself has accepted that some boys simply aren't ready at 4.0. Not "not academic". Not "not bright". Just plain and simple not ready. The UK is out of step with the rest of the civilised world (barring a few other exceptions) and hopefully change will come soon.

Agree with the others that this particular school seems to be handling it incredibly badly. Our reception teacher handled the August-borns beautifully last year....they didn't realise they were working at all.

Any private nursery would take him happily.

I've just read the homepage of the Lyceum school Marina, and it sounds terrifying, much more daunting than his current school.

The thing is most parents and children are very happy with this school, there is a little boy in DS's class who went to pre-school there and went somewhere else for reception and didn't settle so came back in early Oct and has settled perfectly. His mother was telling me only yesterday how much more relaxed he is now that he's moved back. I really think that if DS were an autumn child (and therefore older) he would be enjoying himself the way that the others are. But he's in a bit of a spiral now, he really wants to be good, he promises to be good, but he just can't focus enough and then once he's in trouble he can't stop himself from getting even worse.

Eeek, sorry it's not suitable. An erstwhile Mner had a young-for-year ds who was so happy there, so thought it might be worth a look. I am so sorry he is not happier

Sounds like it's gone pear shaped because the academic side of things is being stressed too soon - or too soon for most children including your DS, at any rate.

Sounds like the school's expectations are overly high. DS is in reception and the only homework DS gets is reading books/letter sounds, which gets set once a week. The teacher specifically said that they do not send worksheets home - that if a state school did that Ofsted would "slaughter" them, as that's not what reception is about. Agree with other posters about exploring other state and private schools locally.

Bran. Just a thought. Is there more than one reception class and he could move into another one with more children near to his age.??? If the majority of the children 5 befroe Nov and there are only 12 in the class he may feel he needs to do more to keep up with them.

My DS2 is a July child and has just started reception in a private school and is absolutely thriving but unlike yours the children are all spread out throughout the year and the teacher and TA are very aware of the different abilites they are dealing with. He wasn't able to read when he started but is doing really well. Compared to him the Sept/Oct children have got quite 'advanced' books. However if you ask him what he does all he says is 'play'.

I think you're right lingle, he's just not ready, although I suspect he may also be "not academic" which would be fine by me as he's so outgoing and interested that he would be bound to have a fulfilling life and career anyway.

I know that he doesn't have to be educated yet (in fact he doesn't have to go to school at all) although I though he had to start in the term during which he turns 5, ie summer term of this academic year.

The trouble with sending him to a private nursery is that around here they don't have any 4 year olds because they've all gone to pre-school or reception, so he would be lonely and bored.

Aaggh, I don't know what to do. My heart says withdraw him until I've had a meeting with his teacher and the head of foundation, my head says leave him in and have the meeting or wait a few more weeks, my DH says I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, I should just tell him to behave and it'll sort itself out.

I think your gut feeling is right Bran, that this will not just sort itself out. I also wouldn't leave it a few more weeks before trying to talk to the school. The behaviours your ds is displaying are quite extreme (wetting himself, spitting, biting). I really think you need to speak to the school straight after half term (are you on half term at the moment?)

I think you need to have a very straight discussion with them about how unhappy he is, how unusual this behaviour is for him, and how quickly his behaviour has changed. Any change in behaviour is a warning sign as far as I'm concerned.

Together, you need to come up with some positive strategies for his behaviour, including changes to the curriculum or learning environment and opportunities. However, don't be fobbed off with them only coming up with strategies to stop the negative behaviour. What they really need to address is why he's displaying these behaviours. I think they will probably need to take a long, hard look at their own practice (or is it practise???).

Last week was half term Littlefish, during which he was adorable just like his old self, which is naturally very active, a bit cheeky, kind, charming and reasonably obedient. This is only the second day back after a week off. His behaviour had been deteriorating quite quickly in the last 2 weeks before half term which I put down to tiredness and I thought he would improve after a week off, but he hasn't.

I'm not sure now whether to send him in tomorrow or not. I should probably sleep on it.

Sleeping on it is a good idea.

How about going in with him tomorrow and arranging to see the head teacher and class teacher after school. Things always seem more positive when you have a plan.

Sleep well.