At what stage should I consider moving DS down a year or taking him out of school? - Long and not very original or interesting I'm afraid.

[bran]

DS started in reception this year. I like the school and his teacher, but he's having problems that are getting worse. He won't be five until June, he is the youngest by 2 months, and in his class of 12 at least 7 children will have turned 5 by the end of November. He was at pre-school at the same school from January and took nearly half a term to settle there, but his unsettlement was mostly expressed as being quiet or miserable.

Now he's in reception his behaviour both in school and out is sometimes appalling. The best his teacher ever says when I pick him up is that he had an ok day but didn't listen, mostly I get to hear about the name-calling, hitting, kicking and how many time outs he's had. He's cheeky to the teacher and TA (he calls them poo-poo and stupid which fortunately is the worst that he knows). When I talk to him about his behaviour or discipline him he spits, kicks, bites and occasionally deliberately wets himself. Coming home from school today was a new low, involving spitting at passers-by and wetting himself. His teacher is getting a bit pissed off because he's teaching the other kids bad habbits.

The cause of the behaviour is a bit of a mystery and it's getting worse. His teacher implies that it's because DH works abroad during the week, DH thinks it's the school's fault (although he's never met DS's teacher) except for today when I spoke to him on the phone when he implied it was my fault. I think that DS is young for his age, very active and not at all academic and is simply not capable of sitting still and concentrating for such a long day (it's 9-4), although DH being away doesn't help at all. TBH I had my doubts about the whole system, but when you're in a foreign country you tend to go with the norm and the British people I know don't seem to have had any lasting damage done by starting school early.

When we were in Dublin for half term last week DS reverted back to his usual happy, chatty self, constantly on the go and doing things. He played beautifully with other kids like he used to. There were no tantrums or even much in the way of usage of the word "poo" except when he was tired just before bed. It made me realise just how much school has changed him for the worse, and how unhappy he seems most of the time. I suggested to his teacher that he should drop back to pre-school and she seemed outraged and implied that it would be very damaging for him, but I don't see how it could be worse than it is now.

How long should I wait before I make a decision about this? My instinct is to ask to meet the head of pre-school and his teacher this week but I think logically I should probably leave it to the end of term and see how it goes.

Under EYFES or whatever it's called in state schools during reception the children now get to select what activities they do etc so a huge leap from where he is at the moment. It does sound a horrendous situation. Could you home ed him for a while? Have you looked further afield for a completely different kind of school - there is one near me where all the parents have to go in and teach once per week and the school is probably 50 dc in total?

Exactly what Littlefish said.

Please don't make a judgement about your ds "
maybe not academic" That's something to consider much, much later.

Right now your ds is very unhappy and needs attention. Together you and the school need a strategy.
They should talk to you about nurture groups, social stories, PALs groups, positive behavioural strategies,child initiated activity, physical play, outdoor learning etc

btw does ds see any connection in dh working away and him having to now attend full time school?

Just adding my voice to all the other horrified posters- this is not the first experience a little boy should have of school! If state school is not an alternative (but I'd put pressure on the LEA first), then I'd take him out altogether. Poor little lad! My ds sounds very similar to him, slow developer, summer baby, very much a little boy- but because he's been in a better run school, he has got to Yr 4 without going through this level of trauma. State school, twice the class size, but much more time for fun and games.

Let him go back to the preschool.

at the hours and the workload.

I would definitely expect the school to be flexible and respond to your ds's needs, especially with 12 in a class.

My friend's dd is the same age, and her school (state) has agreed to let her go home early at the end of the week when she's tired if necessary, and there is NO time limit or pressure on homework. My own dd is nearly 5, and also has no time limits or pressure on homework.

Things don't seem quite as bad in the light of day today. DS woke up with a snotty cold so I decided not to send him in and he's been happy as anything with only the usual minor cheekiness and one toy-throwing incident. I had to go to my lovely GP this afternoon to have my blood pressure checked and she has one about the same age and was asking how ds was so I was telling her a bit about the behaviour problems. She was quite surprised, not least because DS was sitting quietly reading a Lazy Town magazine and happily singing a little song to himself.

I have made an appointment to meet his teacher and the head of foundation next Wednesday. I asked if he could do half days until the meeting but they refused so I'm keeping him off until then. I think I'm going to be spending a lot of time in windy playgrounds for a week.

I have been having an email conversation with DH, and he finished with "What does the mumsnet community think?". Do you think he thinks I spend a lot of time on here? I'm sending him a link to this so that he can have the benefit of all your wisdom.

Hi Bran - I'm so glad you had a good day with your ds today.

Why weren't the teacher and and head of foundation available until next week? That sounds like a long time. I always try and see parents by the following day at the latest. As a teacher, I recognise that if a parent is concerned enough to ask to see me, then they need to have their concerns addressed asap.

Are the school aware of why you want to come and see them? Are they also now aware that you are going to keep ds off until you have seen them. I think it's important that they know, so they can see how concerned you are.

Your GP's reaction is one you should remember when you're having your discussion with the school.

Hello MrBran! Come and chat with us too if you like (as long as your wife doesn't mind!).

It does seem a long time to me too, but perhaps they have other commitments. On the phone the head of foundation seemed surprised that I thought that DS was having emotional problems, she described him as a happy entertainer, which he definitely is naturally. But that's not at all the feedback that I'm getting from his teacher and he's clearly not happy by the end of the school day and is having a lot of time-out and discipline at school.

I did say that I will be keeping him off until the meeting after the head of foundation phone back to say he couldn't do half days and she didn't say anything really about that. I probably should have made it an ultimatum at the outset, half days or nothing, I think she just expected that I would accept the decision not to let him do half days and continue as we were. I am slightly bricking myself at having to keep DS amused for a week without other children around for him to play with. I think I will be standing around in windy playgrounds with just him for company quite a bit.

bran- it sounds liuke he may have a super duff teacher if the head of foundation is so much more positive about him?

I like his teacher a lot, she's very sweet and ernest. She's new this year though, so I suppose there is a chance that she is trying too hard and being a bit academically pushy in order to make a good impression in her first term. She does drop the odd worrying phrase like children needing to be stretched and challenged in order not to be bored. The school as a whole does really value what I think of as girly and/or geeky behaviour, sitting still, speaking quietly, concentrating on work, but I think most schools are like that. TBH I would have loved this school as a child, but I was a geeky girl who was academically very advanced (I'm still geeky and female but the academic advancement wore off and I was firmly average by about 7 yrs old ). DS is entirely different and should really be at stage school, or one of those forest schools they have in Germany, or anything really where he doesn't have to sit still and stay quiet.

Bran - your poor DS. And poor you. My DS is an August boy and if I had known then what I know now about the English system I would not have started him at 4. He did a year of nursery from 3 and went into reception at 4 and in retrospect I should have done nursery from 4 and reception from 5. Am lucky enough that we will always be at private school which I think will be more flexible. And if not we go elsewhere! We are already planning on holding DS back when we move back to UK - school are fine about it.

Anyway - I wonder if the teacher is the issue. You may like her but the work seems totally OTT for 4 year olds. ANY 4 year olds. Maybe she is just really inexperienced.

My DS was totally uninterested in the academic stuff in reception and the teacher just let him go at his own pace. Some children were getting word sheets but he wasn't and then one day he just wanted one so she said that was the time to do it. His homework then was reading and doing a word sheet - i.e. learning the high-frequency words.

The behaviour changes are worrying. I would def talk to the school. And remember you are a paying customer.

if you are always going to use private education I would just insist that he goes back to pre-school he clearly isn't ready, he will still be 16 when he sits his GCSe's even if he is a year "behind"

OP has described my Ds1, he is HE'd and would never cope at school at this moment in time. He is not one of the youngest (Jan) but simply would never cope with the formality and structure of school, even Reception.

Bran from all you have said on this thread, I cannot help but think that this school is totally unsuited to your child. I do understand not wanting to move him twice but if that means he has to endure 2 years of a school that just isn't working for him, surely moving him is the best thing to do?

Reception year at my DC's (private) school was play based - the teaching assistant looked after 12 of the children outside even in rain and wind, whilst they did play based activities and the teacher took 4 children indoors for short 30min spells of more formal learning. She tailored the formal stuff to the skills of the small group she was dealing with at any one time, whilst the other children played on a free choice basis with outdoor activities. This meant that children were cooped up at their desks for a minimal amount of time each day. Progress on reading, writing and arithmetic was very swift though, so it clearly did not compromise their learning outcomes.

Play based learning in reception is pretty much the norm now and I do think your DS would be much better off in such an environment.

I do realise that school choices round your way are rather limited but are there really no alternatives?

Glad to hear you feel more sanguine about it all today Bran.. ( someone's been reading the Telegraph tho' I think )

Littlefish's point about the delay in getting an appointment is absolutely right; as is the point about you being a paying customer. It's something I would point out to hem. In my state school we see parents instantly and would never suggest an appointment this far ahead unless it was at the parents' request.

I think the fact that ds is so happy at home is a little insight into the way he is feeling. It sounds like the teacher finds him challenging, for whatever reason. I would be very interested in hearing about her experience of delivering the foundation curriculum...

THere's lots of good advice on this thread; my final suggestion would be that you have a meeting with them this week and give them time to come up with some positive ways to ensure that ds is happy and engaged at school. Then, when he is better and goes back to school, they are ready to go with a fresh start and a more appropriate curriculum.

Is there something I should read in the Telegraph, or do you mean more of a Telegraph-reader attitude? It's not my paper of choice, I think I may have read the Sunday Telegraph once years ago when the shop ran out of The Sunday Times.

I would have expected to have the meeting sooner than next Wednesday, but tbh it's better for me to have it after the weekend anyway as DH is back this evening and we will have time to thrash out what's gone wrong and what I we want to happen.

I'm still thinking about what to do if he ends up not going back at all. HE is definitely out of the question, I'm simply not the right type (I know there's no one 'type', but YKWIM) and DS loves to be in a crowd. One of my rl friends has a son the same age as DS who goes to smaller independent school and he's very happy there, so I may investigate that. It's a reasonably long commute on the other side of the Thames, although I suppose there could be a possiblity of sharing the school run with her. One of the things that I liked about the current school is that it's the only one that is local to us so he has a short journey (it's less than 30 mins walk for me, under 10 mins in the car and 25 mins door to door if we go by bus). Lots of the children live nearby us and I know some of the parents in his year socially (ie people that I would see even if their children were at a different school), so it does feel a little bit cosy despite being in the city.

bran:- there was an article on the woodland nurseries in the telegraph magazine recetly.. which you mentioned in one of your posts...

good luck with whatever you decide.

Really? In the UK? I remember hearing about them when I was living in Germany. At the time I thought it was terribly cruel and harsh, but now that I actually have a child (and therefore a right to an opinion) they seem like a pretty good idea.

The article was about woodland nurseries in Germany - I read it too!

However, there are plenty of state schools and nurseries in the uk who are thinking more and more about "Forest Schools" and their impact on children's learning. In fact, the nursery where dd goes is linked with a school with has a forest area. Every class spends at least half a day there each week.

The other thing you might want to look out for is schools/nurseries which follow a "High/Scope" or "Reggio Emilia" approach. Both are child centred/child led.

Hi Bran,

I hope you can sort it all out soon, have been thinking about you and DS, it really is a horrid situation.

(It would be remiss me not to mention that I have a son at the same school and we have our own concerns about various aspects, mostly to do with discipline, have posted under a different name regarding my DS being excluded from swimming for "inappropriate behaviour").

See you soon,

See Littlefish you are my alter ego.. we even read the same articles!

Interesting post mm2bys;

Hope you and dh can get a decent chat sorted before Wed Bran.

where do you live bran? do you work in the city?
if you are anywhere near city proper look at dallington school, dallington street, (off goswell road, between city and the angel)..... lots and lots of play. very laid back. very keen on social / emotional skills / v small....

Robinpud

Controlfreeky, I looked at Dallington School's website and it sounds fabulous, it would suit ds down to the ground. Unfortunately I think the commute would be too long. I used to work near Angel station and the commute from here was 50 mins door to door, involving a change at the dreaded Bank station. I hated the commute and can't imagine doing it with a small child.

Can anyone point me in the direction of a website that sumarises the Education Act? I have a feeling that they will claim that ds is legally obliged to be in a particular class at a particular age and I would like to have a printout of the facts at my fingertips. When I went to a presentation for parents of children about to start reception the head of foundation stage started off by saying that all children are legally obliged to attend school when they turn 5, and was a little sniffy when I pointed out that they aren't.

Chn are obliged to be in full time education in the term after they turn 5. ie your ds need not start full time until sep 2009.

He's not obliged to start in year 1 the term after he turns five though, is he? Does the act just specify full-time education?

I'm just back from the school halloween party, which was wonderful for chatting to other parents and getting their opinion. As I suspected DS isn't the only one having problems in his class, which is a good thing to know before the meeting. DS had a wonderful time too, and behaved like the little angel that he is.