Starting reception, not reliably toilet trained

[arghhso]

Pains me to say it but we’re nearly two years down the line and unfortunately just not there yet.

I have tried the usual resources (ERIC etc) but that aside my worry is DS soiling himself at school. I’m mostly wondering what the procedure is then? Will I or DH be expected to come in to clean him up?

We were referred through the health visitor/practitioners they have and we were only wee accidents, they said if not sorted then to get the referral in in plenty of time ahead of starting school. I would definitely get yourself seen, they offer support and strategies and can then refer.

please don’t let some of the comments on this thread get you down Op, Mumsnetters can be wierdly judgemental and ignorant about continence issues.
i’ve been where you are and I know how hard it is, how you try every approach, read every article, go to every clinic and still have problems.

My ds would go in cycles so we’d think we had well and truly cracked it and then he went through another bad patch and we’d despair again.

in terms of your initial question, school were brilliant…supportive and understanding and put so much effort into how they could help us.

I think we did get called to help him a couple of times when he was a real mess but it was very rare.

He did eventually grow out of it but much later than Reception.

Please talk to school and try not to pay too much attention to the thoughtless comments on here.

When I raised with the HV they didn’t really do anything! I’m wondering if I live in a weird bubble where nothing gets done.

Thanks @IanStirlingrocks that’s where we are. I was so sure we’d cracked it at the beginning of this year. It’s strange as my second child is just getting it … so I do understand why if your child is like that you might think others are lazy. But some children just do take longer with this skill than others I guess.

Perhaps say you need to see someone for toileting support and a continence referral, I cannot see how he wouldn’t meet the threshold. The lady I saw was a practitioner but through the health visitors and very helpful.

Has he been worse since you've started toilet training your other child?

What was happening around the time that the regression started?

We have had to be really firm with my daughter that there are some times when she has to listen to us and sit on the toilet even though she doesn't have to wee. We had a 25 minute meltdown one day when I was about to head out for a 40+ minutes car journey with her on roads with no laybys or stopping areas. The first days of reinforcing sitting on the toilet on demand where full of conflict but she now mostly accepts and refusal only lasts a minute or two.

If we sit her on the toilet with her legs prop her feet up and give her a toy she usually poos within a few minutes.

No, he hasn’t been worse. I honestly can’t say; the only thing I can think of is hotter weather so drinking more so increased urine but most of the accidents have been soiled .

Hi OP. I’ve just read the thread through and agree you should definitely talk to the school.

I also think you should definitely get onto a continence referral asap too You’re coming across as a big passive on that front. It is highly possible that your son is constipated and his poo is all backed up inside him which is causing the problem. This can’t be sorted without proper medical advice. Please advocate for him and get this.

It isn’t that I’m being passive but I’ve been told it isn’t a problem and as such I’ll come across as completely barking mad if I start insisting there is a problem. If there is a problem, time will prove it, if there isn’t then all is well. But to be honest I was really asking about school rather than DS if that makes sense.

It probably is worth exploring constipation. There was a thread a while ago where a woman had an older child regularly having soiled accidents. What was coming through was quite loose but it turned out she was severely constipated which meant she had no signals for needing to poo as it was just leaking around the stuck poo so she wasn't actively pooing.
The paediatrician did either an emena or manual evacuation to shift a large ball of poo and within a few days of a bowel clearing protocol she was starting to get the signal to poo.

The start of the thread was full of people calling her daughter lazy and to make her clean up and do her washing and so on treating it as a behavioural thing when it was really a medical issue.

Honestly if he’s constipated I’ll sell my house. His eating is great, he only drinks water, poos are large without being so large they are indicative of a blockage. And the doctor said he wasn’t. One MN issue is that while it’s really good to explore possibilities it can then become the default answer and not all children who are struggling with toileting are constipated.

Just ask to have a meeting with the teacher. That's what we did with school.
We had a chat with the teacher outlining her allergies symptoms what happens.

I have since had meetings with the teacher and the head teacher about managing my daughters accidents and trying to come up with protocols to help my daughter with communication and toileting.

The head teacher listened more to the communication although the teacher was treating it more as a continence issue and was trying to leave the only action from the meeting as me making a self referral to the continence team. The difference with my daughter is she only have accidents at school or after school club and not in any other environments

My last comment on the constipation but this woman had been to the Dr several times and told no. It was only when a Dr did a rectal exam it was identified. All previous exams hadn't identified the constipation.

I do get it through. My daughter had toddler diarrhoea and nearly everyone I spoke to said it wasn't diarrhoea it was constipation and overflow but food diaries and dietitian and pads appointments confirmed toddler diarrhoea which we managed to improve on a low fibre, high fat diet which had it been constipation would have made it worse.

On the flip side could it be toddler diarrhoea? It's common between 2 and 5. Hallmarks that made the paediatrician look at it was poos very early in the morning in her overnight nappy and undigested food in her stools

Can he clean himself after an accident?
I would be working on getting him to be able to in preparation for school as much as trying to stop the accidents. I think you also might find that if he has to the cleaning up then he won’t want to have the accidents in the first place.

Op, I wonder if it's worth trying to see someone privately? My daughter was very similar, she knew exactly what she needed to do, but could never ever get there on time. There were a couple other symptoms but she was diagnosed with bladder urgency, frequency and irritation. She was prescribed oxybutnin and honestly, life changing. Our GP was useless too hence we went privately, we were fortunate to be able to do so. If you'd rather message me if you want any info please feel free to do so.

Contributions like that are horrible to read and disrespectful in the extreme. I’m not really interested in discussing it any further.

If you suspect it’s down to laziness, could you celebrate and reward successes? If he manages a full day without accidents he get a sticker, and 5 stickers is a reward (or similar)
My DS was lazy when it came to toilet training, but never had an accident again when I introduced an extra incentive.

Ignore all the discouraging responses, OP. The very fact you posted for advice shows you clearly understand it is an issue and you know you need to resolve it.

ignore those saying you are a bad or lazy parent- it's great for those who child flew through, but their child is not your child. You haven't NOT trained, it just hasn't stuck as you might have expected.

People need to remember that children aren't machines- they are complex beings. Some find some things easy, others not; the same with approaches to issues (works for some, not others). And that is all normal. What works for one won't work for others. It sounds like OP has tried a lot of different things, with no success (because they haven't worked for her child. Sometimes things don't stick...until they do.

Keep pushing with the GP and HV (both to rule out issues (both physical and neurological), try any appeoaches that might be new, and let the school know, continuing to advocate for your child.

Good luck.

One thing we have found help although is to model the behaviour we want to see. So if we are going out and want her to use the loo we go first and say "I'm going to try for a wee can you try after me".

My daughters school has a supporting pupils with medical needs policy document. I'm reading it for something else but it contains some points on toileting issues and that they won't make parents feel obliged to visit school for medical support surrounding toileting issues and also that the school can't refuse them to use the toilet if needed to manage their condition.

It might be worth looking whether their school has a similar policy. It might give you a framework to understand what the school is obligated to do and it would be worth discussing with the school that he has a medical need around toileting and how to get this recognised ahead of September. With the best will in the world even if you make great progress over the summer there could still be a regression once they are in an unfamiliar situation.

I found the document under the policies section on her schools website.

Oh OP please dont worry, I worked in reception for s epilepsy. School will do an intimate care plan and support him with this. And no they cant get you into school to change him, this is not ok.

ERIC has guidance on that but they will be breaching equality act.

Its probably worth trying to see if it is linked with constipation even poo is soft but not really loose.

2 out of my 6 took a while with toilet training, 2 of them were trsined at 18 months, there is wide variation, its not that unusual.

Gerrard not sure what autocorrect has done there. It should say i worked in reception for several years.

In some areas you won't get a referral at all because some children's continence services have literally been axed.

I strongly suspect the rise in the use of artificial sweeteners in vast numbers of foods is contributing the number of children struggling with toilet training.

Artificial sweeteners can have a laxative effect and can also play havoc with the bladder.

I’m in the same position. Dd is on movicol and has soiling accidents a couple of times a week. School have said they will help her. Like you though I’m very stressed about it.