Starting reception, not reliably toilet trained

[arghhso]

Pains me to say it but we’re nearly two years down the line and unfortunately just not there yet.

I have tried the usual resources (ERIC etc) but that aside my worry is DS soiling himself at school. I’m mostly wondering what the procedure is then? Will I or DH be expected to come in to clean him up?

Please speak to the school before letting people on here worry you. I teach Reception, and at my school we would draw up an intimate care plan for him, which you'd sign, and we'd help clean and change him with dignity.

You need to go back to the GP and ask to be put in contact with the continence team. It's totally normal for them to have occasional accidents at 4, but daily soiling definitely suggests an issue. It could be constipation as that can lead to constant leaking of watery stool while they're blocked up further up (sorry for tmi).

Please try not to panic. Be upfront and honest with the school. I really hope they're supportive.

I don’t think so exactly @CopperWhite but I do think he puts it off.

I’ll have to speak to the school; just really worried they’ll judge me

The school won't judge you, especially as you are working to find out if there is a medical need. Lots of children have toileting issues.

I would speak to your GP - or if they are useless then the practice nurse and say you need an urgent referral to the continence service. Make as much of a fuss as needed to make that happen. You can google children’s continence NHS in your area and also ask them direct for any advice for quick referral. They all take kids from 4 as far as I know, some younger.

And then please do pre-warn the school, as long as you are doing what you can re referrals and you let them know in advance, no school will think badly of you, but if you are passive about it and don’t talk to them in advance, then they may not be super happy.

The school will only judge you negatively if you’re not dealing with a problem, but you are here, asking for help and doing your best. Good teachers don’t judge badly when parents are obviously doing what they can to help their child, as you are.

If you think he’s choosing to put off going, then you need to work out why. Is it because he doesn’t want to leave what he’s doing, or because he doesn’t like going to/sitting on the toilet, it is physically uncomfortable or painful for him, or something else completely?

Maybe if you can work out what it is, addressing that directly would solve the problem.

What happens when he has accidents? It needs to be as inconvenient for him as possible so he has an incentive to avoid putting off going to the toilet when he needs to.

Don't beat yourself up entirely OP and doesn't listen to some posters who will probably act like you've been a lazy parent. You haven't, you've honestly been trying, but all children are different and you'd be surprised how common it was.
One of mine was still having regular wee leaks (ended up seeing incontinence service) and school were really supportive with sending them to the loo regularly, not ever asking them to wait. Pants were regularly changed.

I think the first thing to do is rule out a medical issue - is it poo that's the issue or wee as well. Sometimes too many artificial sweeteners eg in sugar free sweets can make kids very loose which can make it harder for kids to control.
Or an undiagnosed food intolerance can affect their bowel.
Likewise constipation can result is reduced/no control and leakage.
Be honest with school, ask for support from the school nurse and assistance with referral to an incontinence service (if there is one. Sadly some have been axed so some areas literally have nothing).

Honestly though please don't beat yourself up if you've been trying for 2 years there's likely a medical cause underlying.

If they are putting off going give lots of 'p' fruits (plum, peach, pear etc') and send to the loo after every meal (so 10/15 min after eating) and insist they sit and relax on the loo. If they need to watch a tablet while sitting or look at a book let them do so.

Please don't worry they will judge you OP.
The ones they judge are the ones who haven't bothered, don't even tell them there's an issue, and just send a kid in a nappy into reception without a word.
Schools dont judge a parent who is trying.
They don't judge a parent who's kid is struggling with reading when that parent is trying to help at home, reading with the kid each day, and communicating with school. This is just a different skill your child is struggling with.

Thanks. I think what’s frustrating is while it took ages to get it, once he did he seemed pretty reliable and I even stopped taking spare pants out with me routinely. Now we’ve gone back! He has a transition day next week. I’m wondering if I should email the teacher or I’ll look a bit neurotic!

The school will not judge you.

speak to them and explain the situation.

if one of the main issues is that he forgets to go then in reception they are almost constantly reminded - they’ll be told to go before morning break, before lunch and before afternoon break.

honestly, speak to the school. You’ve been working on it and the school will put together an initimate care plan.

Is your son able to tell you why he didn’t go. Does he say he couldn’t help it or is he reluctant to go.

You can email the teacher if you want to and they will probably reassure you that they are able to deal with accidents, but it would be better if you could also tell them what you’re doing to address it, and that your son can manage most of the clean up process himself with supervision.

He might well be OK if he’s told to go that frequently.

I would ask your GP to refer dc to the community paediatrician/continence nurse service. It sounds like it could be chronic constipation which GP’s are often rubbish with.

if it is chronic constipation it won’t improve without clearing the bowel & then maintenance dose of a laxative for a while. ERIC have information about this but until you know what you’re doing you need help. There are NICE guidelines on chronic constipation in children too.

Apologies if this has been mentioned before but have you tried sticker charts and rewards? We had basically the same issue with our DC and ended up working with the nursery to give a sticker after going to the toilet, we would give a star on the chart at the end of each successful day and if they made it to Sunday accident-free, a reward (a small toy, choice of activity at the weekend etc). It may very well not be a medical issue but just simply making the choice not to go to the toilet when he needs it (if he's having fun playing or engrossed in an activity) so I would also ask the nursery staff to give regular reminders to him throughout the day, and replicate that at home too.

Our DC started school and never had an accident there after we put in a tonne of effort - its hard work but it paid off.

My daughter is coming to the end of reception. She was fully toilet trained when starting school but has food allergies that cause loose stools which don't always give her enough notice to get to the toilet. We spoke to the staff when she started school and she started school with a bag of spare clothes.
As it turned out she has struggled with toileting in school. She had frequent accidents in the first term and then got better. Her issue is not being able to approach unfamiliar staff to ask to go to the toilet, forest school has been a particular problem. If the staff are aware they change her. Quite commonly she won't tell them and waits for us to pick her which is less than ideal. She did much better in the spring term so now she doesn't take in spare clothes but has a set kept in the school.
We've had another set back this term with communication so the teachers are prompting her more. We have been working on her going to the toilet if asked rather than waiting to need it. This has been a problem as she could have been asked by a safe member of staff and not really needed the toilet but half an hour later she's needed the toilet but then doing work with a ta that's she's not comfortable talking to about personal issues.
The classroom and staff now have cards for prompts so she can give an unsafe staff member the toilet card without her having to talk to them.

Have a chat with the school, have a good think about what it is about using the toilet that causes issues for your child and how the school can support them from where they currently and work towards gaining independence and improved toileting. To be honest, the biggest issue I've had is the school seeing it as a problem and not shrugging it off as 4 yos have accidents. It took me reiterating the pattern of behaviour and highlighting the event from my daughter's point of view. Removing some of the barriers to communication has really helped her. Quite nervous about September when we have new teachers to get her comfortable with!

OP no advice just wanted to extend solidarity, my old in the year 4 year old is also about to start school and is still have regular poo accidents, sounds very similar to yours. In this case we just think he doesn’t want to stop what he’s doing to go. It gets better for a while, we’ll have a few weeks of no accidents then worse again. Oddly though, he’s at the school nursery so has been in that environment for nearly a year and has never had an accident there, not one, despite plenty at home (2 poo accidents yesterday alone…) I have no idea what’s different for him there.

But just to say I completely understand the frustration and the guilt and feeling like you’ll be judged, especially with all the media focus lately on ‘unpottytrained kids in school’. I really don’t know what I could have done differently, we’ve tried the chocolate and the stickers and lots of encouragement and being neutral… just know you’re not alone x

Would you / he actually want a teacher changing him?

Not the same as she was toilet trained so could say when she needed to go but my my dsd had anxiety around toileting at that age and would need some to sit with her and check she’s wiped properly and it could often take her quite a long time.
Luckily we only lived a street away and so did grandparents so someone was always available to run down and help when phoned, never any option that a staff member would help instead
but don’t think we wouldn’t have wanted a them touching her like that anyway.

I’d also be concerned about bullying, kids can be mean even at that age. The boy in the DS’s class who had accidents through the first couple of years of school is still in year 5 called names because of it.

As he is under 5, you can still get a health visitor involved. They are experts at getting access to services for this London of thing, especially if your GP is being difficult.

Also OP reception teachers quickly figure who the kids are that they need to make sure go to the loo for eg before assembly or if they are about to start a big activity. They get to know which ones just need a wee more often than others.
After all plenty of kids in a reception class are still only 4, there are still lots of accidents happen when kids don't want to stop what they are doing or miss out on something!

Definitely speak to the school.

Schools should not be requiring parents to attend school to change DC. The supporting pupils at school with medical conditions statutory guidance covers this. It applies even if there isn’t a diagnosed condition.

In some areas it is possible to self refer to the continence service. If you can in your area, it is worth getting on their waiting list. If you can’t self refer, ask the GP to refer.

OP the only thing I would say from experience with my own dd is as per the 'oh crap' book I'd advise taking the 'Yoda' approach. (Do or do not there is no try) In other words I would be very firm in telling her that there are no pullups. She's a big girl now and needs to be trying hard to use the toilet. It will probably just click one day so I wouldn't panic. I'd also do as much as you can to make it 'awkward' as possible for her without chastising or punishing her. Make her clean up after herself. If she has accidents whilst you're out then 'sorry darling we now need to go home and have a shower'. Do take her back to the GP and ask for referral to the continence nurses too.

He hasn’t been in pull ups since 2023, but thanks!

No accidents yesterday (well, apart from pooing in the shower - my standards are low now 🤦)

ok. Don’t panic. We had this. And tbh even now they are in Y5 we still have problems.

Our child is under the paediatric urology team so school have instructions on their role.

it’s not been easy and hopefully your challenges will be more swiftly resolved than ours.

tbh we need a referral to CAMHs for adhd / Asd / sensory processing assessment but that is not happening at the moment.

so. For you: please request GP and HV for a referral to the team that deal with this. Ie Paeds urology.

it takes time to get on their list. So request it now.

also speak to the SENco at the school before the end of term to highlight the issues and ask for their SEN policy and how they propose to deal with this if it is still a challenge in 2 months time.

School have to treat your child with respect and that includes compassion and understanding and clean clothes. He may have to clean himself up with support from a TA. But you should not be required to go into school. So do not offer this and also refuse if they mention it. They should not.

we still send in a bag of clothes every day. Please also send wet wipes.

Please seek real life support now - ie not just ERIC and MN. The Paeds nurse has been a life saver for my mental health.

Also to add. Our first child potty trained himself at 2yo. So this challenge with our 2nd child has felt even more unexpected, unfair and difficult!!!

however it also means I can rise above the judgey looks. I know I have done all is can - except give up work!!!
so I don’t bother with the guilt either.

does not resolve the challenge but we have had some improvements so we celebrate the small wins!!

In my old school we would not expect you to come in and change them. We would have worked with you to resolve the issue, assuming no medical issues.

I suspect lots of people on this thread don’t actually work in a school.