Starting reception, not reliably toilet trained

[arghhso]

Pains me to say it but we’re nearly two years down the line and unfortunately just not there yet.

I have tried the usual resources (ERIC etc) but that aside my worry is DS soiling himself at school. I’m mostly wondering what the procedure is then? Will I or DH be expected to come in to clean him up?

It's quite common for preschoolers to just not want to stop what they are doing. This can lead to wetting accidents but also ignoring signals for bm's. This cab very quickly lead to constipation and a sluggish bowel. Also if they bowel is full then it outside pressure on the bladder and that increases wetting accidents.

With my dc we got them into a routine of having a bm after dinner and before the bath. My ds had a twitchy bladder, couldn't hold on when he needed to pee in the day and extended night time wetting until puberty. We found movicol very helpful, it's not a laxative as such, it just adds moisture to the bowel contents. The full dose was too much but half a sachet every other day really helped. That no red squash or other highly coloured drinks because they were absolutely triggers for bladder irritation and wetting accidents.

Agree. I think this is becoming more of an issue as people are starting toilet training much later. I think the problem is poo can take longer to 'get', but if it goes on for too long, kids can develop anxiety around this then it can cause constipation and incontinence issues can take place like PP have said when the bowel is then stretched and they can't feel the need to go. So what have you tried OP? Reward charts, blowing bubbles, baths, doing it in a nappy in the potty etc?

I really doubt they would though - it's normal for them still to be having accidents at this age. My kid was largely toilet trained but sometimes got distracted and didn't go quickly enough. She got the hang of it in Reception. I will also say that her primary just asks for a change of clothes to be packed and has never asked parents to come in to change them (my friend's kid still has the odd accident in year 2 and the staff manage them without calling her).

Also, we were a bit worried about our kid managing poos in reception and the teacher said most of them just won't do a poo at school if they aren't confident about being able to sort themselves out.

It's really not. If you're starting toilet training around age 2 then by 4 they should be having very few or no accidents and certainly not poo ones. There was a thread on this yesterday as more and more children are starting school in nappies and people are trying to normalise it (when it's not normal)

This

My daughter has a medical issue which affects her bladder and not once have we been asked to come in and change her, even after a poo accident. She takes great delight in telling me if someone had a wee or poo accident (toilet humour is her favourite) and tells me she gave so and so a bag for wet or dirty bits etc or gave one of her baby wipes out etc.
Anyway, point is, just speak to the school

The other local school we looked around even had nappy changing mat and set up in their toilets.

I said it was normal for them still to be having accidents, not normal for them to be in nappies. That's literally what you've just said to me 🙄. Accidents are not the same as being in nappies which is a different kettle of fish. But even if your kid is still in nappies at 5 you will not (at least in my area) get a referral to the incontinence service, and I know that because a friend of mine works for that service. Other areas may vary but in our area you would not get a referral until your kid was 8.

It's not normal to still be having accidents in Y2, which is what you said? Children starting school who haven't been properly been toilet trained is becoming the new epidemic. It simply wasn't a thing a few years ago.

We added "sit on toilet and see if a poo comes out" for 5 mins into the bedtime routine. 3 mins if we needed a bargaining chip and/or thought it was likely they probably didn't need one. That seemed to help get things into a regular pattern where they didn't desperately need a poo to the point of having an accident during school time, and I think it helped avoid the constipation cycle where they hold it in for days and then get scared to go because it hurts so they hold it in even longer and get impacted. The latter was what I was really worried about because DS3 when he first potty trained really would hold onto his poos for ages. Luckily, it didn't become an issue. Not suggesting this as a magic fix, but as an easy to try suggestion which might help.

It seemed to actually help a lot with DS2's behaviour as well and we found out that when he was being consistently impish it was because he was uncomfortable but hadn't recognised the need to do a poo.

If OP is refused a referral to the continence service because of DS’s age she should send this Cerebra model letter because services should not be doing that and such policies can be challenged.

No, I didn't say that. I started by saying it's normal to have accidents "at this age" which is a reference to the OP's concern about her child who is starting reception, not in year 2. Then I talked about my kid's reception teacher and their practice (not requiring parents to come in to change their kids in reception, again addressing the OP's concern which is not whether it is normal but whether she will have to come in to change her reception age child). And then I said that my friend's kid was still having accidents in year 2 and still wasn't required to come in. I have no idea why you would read my post as saying it's normal for children to have accidents in year 2. I didn't make any comment on whether it's normal or not, though in my area, as I have said, the incontinence service would not consider it cause for concern until the kid had turned 8.

You've had some really good advice here on chronic constipation and I urge you to push for the referral. The wait time in our area on nhs is approx 4 month. We were exactly where you are and I couldn't believe it could ge constipation as my ds was doing what looked like normal poos 1-2 times a day. He knew to go to the toilet and the majority of his accident were wet with some soiling. He was diagnosed with chronic constipation 1.5 years ago after a rocky start in reception. School and after school care club were incredibly supportive and I was never once called in to help clean up. He eats lots of fruit and veg, was fully potty trained at 2 and went backwards from age 3.

We've now done two full disimpactions requiring time off school and are on the road to success. However he is still supported brilliantly by school, sees his consultant every 2 months and I have a nurse I can ring whenever needed. He poos 3+ times a day - that's just what his body needs to do to work correctly.

Google the poo nurses website - it's got a brilliant video worth a watch.

If the child has a relevant disability or condition, yes. But if the child is in all other respects developing typically they are likely to be refused a referral until later.

Yeah sorry, it's not normal for any kid to be having poo accidents probably after age 3, maybe younger. Anyway I'll jump off this thread, but I suggest OP uses an actual method and takes a few weeks off to implement it with her DC so there is consistency in the approach. There are also countless threads on here re poo anxiety that they can read to help. Just randomly sitting on the toilet isn't a method as is just a fluke, although it may work for some. Children actually need to recognise they need to go. My DC was like this hence the sympathy and frustration.

Parents don’t have to accept such a decision. They can challenge it because services should not be making decisions like that. For a start, until a comprehensive assessment on-one actually knows if there should be a diagnosis of something or not.

Even when I have picked my daughter up from school at the end of the day and noticed she's had an accident that she hasn't told the staff about, the staff change her. It's usually one of the TAs that does it and I get to talk to the teacher about the circumstances and if there's anything we can learn or put into place to help her next time. Same if it happens in after-school club.
We have a 20 minutes walk uphill home so it would be unpleasant in wet clothes.

They have always been discreet about her accidents and we haven't experienced any name calling. I know from talking to other mums there is another child that struggles with accidents and during the first term quite a few of them had a few accidents.

For me it has been about focusing on improving the situation and trying to understand the set of circumstances triggering set backs.

Teaching her to go on demand and getting the staff to tell her it's time for the toilet rather than asking has made a difference. She still struggles with communicating but taking some of it out her hands has reduced the pressure on her. At preschool room in her nursery the toilets were readily accessible without needing to ask and it's the same at home so the having to ask that's different at school. We are now quite strict with if you leave the house you sit on the toilet first and we are trying to encourage pooing in the evening to reduce need to poo at school. She was once in soiled knickers for approximately 4h which gave her a UTI and then more pressure for wees so it's something we are trying to avoid happening again

Why jump off the thread when you're having so much fun making up stuff that I didn't say and then arguing with it?

You're saying 'the job' and 'we', but different schools have different roles and attitudes.

It's not ultimately for school to take care of as it's definitely not a teacher's job to clean up children.

Well initially I was wanting to help, but OP is being vague and now I'm suspicious after the thread yesterday about this. Good luck to you all!

School would rather know than not know and then find out themselves when DS has accidents.

You suspect a poo troll?

Not a poo troll, but there was a thread yesterday that went off about this very issue but from the other side

If his poo is usually soft then it really could be chronic constipation. A hard lump of poo stuck further up and the softer stuff just squeezes past it. The issue is that they the can't feel when they need to go.
I would go back to the gp and ask for a referral to the continence clinic.
Also might be worth asking for an abdominal examination to see if they can feel a blockage. Then I would either wait for the referral or possibly just disimpact him yourself over the summer. There is a protocol of how to do it on the Eric website.

I see. Well, forgive me for being grumpy with you. I've got a sprained neck and am literally like a bear with a sore head today.

Your username is perfect given the pointlessness of this reply. Op is well aware that she needs to “sort it out” and sounds like she has tried loads.

Op, please don’t be embarrassed to talk to the school, Mumsnet are horrible about toileting issues (although this one actually hasn’t been too bad) but school will be understanding, they’ll work with you and come up with a plan together about how to support your ds.