Primary School punch - AIBU?

[MovingMad87]

DD is in Year 1 (6 years old). A few days ago, I got a call from her school saying she had been punched in the face by a boy in her class, leaving her with a bleeding nose. Awful.

The school explained that DD had been trying to stop this boy from grabbing her friend by the neck. She asked him to stop and told him he should apologise. In response, he punched her. The school suspended him for a day before half-term as a result.

This boy has a history of violent behaviour; scratching, kicking, and punching other children. The school is aware of the issue but as of now haven't really done anything about it.

A few weeks ago, I overheard DDs form tutor telling a parent that their child had a bad day. The teacher had bruises down her leg from being kicked by a different child. While that wasn't the same boy, it reinforced my growing concern that this level of violence is being normalised in the classroom. When I asked DD about it, she wasn't even particularly shocked; apparently, incidents like this happen all the time.

Now, I'm thinking I need to move my child to another school. Possibly private, but I'd rather explore good state school options first. I'll hear what the school has to say in the meeting, but for me, a punch in the face is a red line. A 6-year-old should not be dealing with this. Either the school removes this child, or we leave.

AIBU? Would you move your child?

No - we were directed to reconsider. Our governors chose to stand by their original decision. The governing board cannot be forced to readmit, but the LA will fine them if they do not readmit. None of this involves not following process.

One of those would apply here. Honestly. Why is the priority punitive rather than supportive. The kid is SIX.

Working in a school you’re definitely the kind of parent we wish well for the future.

You think putting a curfew on a 6 year old will help the situation? Most 6YOs are in bed between 9pm and 6am. Don't be so ridiculous.

The same happened in a relatives childs class (P2). School wouldn't remove him, not even from the classroom. Relative's and other's children were coming back with bruises and other injuries on a regular basis. Parents were scum (I don't care if that offends anyone, it's fact). In the end, a couple of parents, after numerous school meetings, meetings with the education head etc confronted the parent and basically threatened them. These parents weren't the fighting type, just completely distraught that their little ones were coming home with bruises, injuries and tears over yet another assault by this child. It soon greatly reduced. I'd like to say stopped, but he has definitely calmed down.

Can I just point out that if we wanted to show KS1 a film rated 18 with violence and swearing we’d be absolutely castigated, yet we expect children to see this on a daily basis inside the classroom? And then wonder why so many children are anxious about school?

And yes there easily years to gather evidence, go through the EHCP process - we have 6 year olds in year2. Or how long do people think is acceptable for the rest of the school community to put up with violence?

That's my point, e.g. parenting contracts, orders, etc., are all legal sanctions. All of this hand-wringing about LA, Ofsted, governors etc. is not enough. The parents need to be dealt with very firmly.

The priority is punitive because the system makes it so. Schools have no other options.

Ah parent judgement coming out.

I work in a behaviour unit. Do you know how many of those kids have parents that are the issue? Less than half. Most of those parents are doing the right things and at home the kids are fine. School is the issue for a multitude of reasons. And for those parents who are the issue the intent is good. They have generational SEN. Less than 5% involve parents where it’s actually a conscious intent. Where the parents aren’t trying. Punitive measures won’t help them either.

I entirely disagree. As someone who works supporting kids with significant behaviour issues. There are a multitude of options that aren’t punitive.

Absolutely.

I can only speak for ourselves, but there is no abuse at home.

We also fully support the school and would never encourage my child to hit and slap teachers. In fact, we discipline him if he does this.

Some people like to pat themselves on the shoulder for their outstanding parenting, totally ignoring the fact that they were just lucky enough to get an easier child.

Report to police also? If I was at work and someone punched me in the face, then that colleague just got sent home for a day, I'd probably sue them! And call the police. If someone punched me in the face in the street, I'd call the police. Why is it different in school?

All of which rely on a cooperative LA, and many of which are simply not available to small, underresourced primary schools.

The only issue is punitive measures in the home won’t work anymore than they do in school. That isn’t the point of behaviour policies. To punish for the sake of it. The most effective way to help children regulate emotionally and behave “well” is early intervention and support from a young age. Not punishments.

You don’t have any SEN or behaviour units with outreach? You can’t read books talking about ABC’s? No specialist advisory services? Do you put in place early intervention and record and then escalate? My experience of schools is that do little, want advice from outreach and then don’t implement. For those who do it’s effective. But the issue is schools often won’t. You’re a classic example, your first line response was to talk about PEX. Not explain what schools must do but straight to PEX citing a child who clearly had issues. No explanation of the fact that not being excluded doesn’t mean the school has done nothing. Or why parents shouldn’t be privy to how the child has been managed.

@Ritzybitzy Most of those parents are doing the right things and at home the kids are fine.

Right, so I presume you typically recommend home schooling in these situations, given that everything's fine at home and no further intervention is required to support or instruct parents on how to modify the behaviour of their child from an early age?

To be clear when using punitive, I mean the exclusion system and process is punitive as it’s based around behavioural transgressions, and not the reason behind those behaviours. There’s no difference between a 16 year old bringing a knife into school vs a 6 year old destroying furniture, and the PEX legislation and statutory guidance is very much written from the stereotypical older teenager being violent perspective, and not well suited to issues with younger children.

That said, young children aren’t picking up language like c*nt and fuck at school.

No. Why would you recommend home schooling? Would you tell a child in a wheelchair just to stay home if there wasn’t an accessible school? A deaf child to stay home if no one in the school knows sign language? Because I guarantee the parents of those children support their children at home so they’re fine at home. If they weren’t fine in school we would know straight off that it’s a school issue. And for many kids with behavioural issues that only exist in school it is a school issue. That doesn’t mean the solution is the child is deprived of an education. Honestly.

One child didn’t pick it up those words at school. The rest did.

and the one child who didn’t could have picked it up anywhere. I am currently sat on a sun lounger in Tenerife with my kids who’ve heard some horrific language from others that has never been uttered in our home. Kids don’t just exist at home and at school.

Also punitively, there is a difference. Whilst behaviour policies outwardly look the same professionals are expected to factor in age and need. A 6 year old lashing out is not the same as a 16 year old lashing out. A 6 year old wetting themselves. Not out of the ordinary. 16 year would be.

My sons class has a wee boy that screams, swears and will often leg it out the classroom and just try and bugger off, the ta has to catch him, I think quite clearly he can't be around other kids in the normal classroom setting.
My own son is on the spectrum and when he started lashing out we removed him and he had a specialist teacher in just a wee room for a while to teach him how to cope and behave better, it really helped and now he's full time, but it just seems like there's SO many kids have the same problems!

Am I seriously to believe that every single primary school in the UK has a problem with violence? Every single one?

I work in a school with over 50% FSM. Traditionally many people would see a school like this as one where there would be problems. We do have some violent children but not many. Because of the PP we are able to fund nurture groups and support.

My friend works in a lovely leafy village school of under 50 children. They have had situations so bad they’ve had to evacuate classrooms. One time a child cornered the head and a teacher and would punch and kick them when they tried to get out. The police were called but the child was 9 so nothing they would do.

I can’t say it’s every single school, but every teacher will be able to tell you a story of a violent child they’ve taught.

@Ritzybitzy Would you tell a child in a wheelchair just to stay home if there wasn’t an accessible school?

Obviously not. What would you do if a child using a wheelchair, or a deaf child, assaulted another child, drawing blood? Blame the school environment? No, you'd remove the child from the school, and you would also be asking questions about how they are being parented and socialised at home. Especially if they are six. Honestly.

I know! I’ve had parents have a go at me about their child coming home swearing as if I was the one who taught them.

No I would not. Because I’m trained appropriately and work within education and am aware that for many kids there are major issues within the school environment which means they need support and more often than not it is not a parenting issue.

We did all of those and more, and have the reams and reams of paperwork to demonstrate that we did so. At the appeal, we asked the question whether our adjustments were reasonable and appropriate and the independent expert confirmed that they were.

But when the LA offers the entire school one EP appointment per year, and the EP goes on maternity leave and the LA doesn’t provide cover, that’s not very helpful. We had support of variable quality from the LA SEND and behavioural management teams, including weeks when they spent every morning in school, none of which made a sustained difference. They were a bit shocked when in their second day in the school, the child stood on a sink, squatted to defecate in it, at which point the shit filled sink came off the wall, rendering the EYFS toilets inoperable for a fortnight whilst we got them fixed ( that also cost us hundreds).

The LA basically wanted this child to kept out of the way in the school’s only meeting room and cause no trouble. They showed zero interest in actually educating the child.

I have not seen schools proceed immediately to PEX when I have sat on appeals. I have seen many, many schools absolutely at the end of their tether.