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Primary education

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Original poster

Atheist in Roman Catholic Primary - experiences sought, please.

267 replies

ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 16:14

We have relocated and been advised that our two options going in at this stage to Year 3 are the Roman Catholic school, which is a very quick walk from home, or the no-religion school which is over an hour's walk away (traffic dire at peak times, I don't want to drive anyway). We could home ed in the hope that a closer non-religious school comes up for September - the LA says there is often movement at this stage in this borough.
DD is happy to see out this term home edded, as am I, but equally, ok to start if a preferred place is offered.

I am vehemently atheist. I cannot stand the religious imposition in schools. But the prospect of a short walk every day, Vs a very very long one, are giving me pause. I'd like for DD to make local friends, not ones who live over an hour's walk away, or further.

I wonder how seriously pushy most Catholic primaries are in this regard. Atheist patents with any experience or views? We will not go to church. I don't want DD being told god is real. (Unless during now and then, proof materialises.)

Other considerations.
RC school is one-form entry.
Non-religious one with current space is SIX-form entry.
Non-religious one with no space but may have space in September is four-form.
Would you pick the tiny RC school or the much bigger ones, if you had the choice?

OP posts:
Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:04

Leafblow · 20/04/2023 20:41

I was in catholic schools, I have no religion, neither do my parents- the schools were just the only option due to catchments and location.

Primary was fine. RE lessons were mostly bible story related but it didn't impact much else, we sang hymns in assembly- along with a couple prayers and got sent for a few boring masses at the local church each year. A nun sat in some of our assemblies and when kids did their holy communion- they got to wear their fancy clothes to school the next day.
I was never really into the religious bits- some of the hymns were fun- especially the ones with actions, we got bread sometimes and were not allowed to do halloween parties.

Generally it was fine- I felt a bit guilty for not believing it once- just because I thought a lot of the stories sounded probably made up and I found most of the church parts really boring.
I asked my mum if it was really true- she told me that the stories they tell are what catholics believe in and the stories are true for them- if I want to believe them then I can, but it is also okay not to- and that its okay to not be a catholic as long as I am not rude about the things they believe. Mkst of the stories are just there to help teach a lesson and its okay to learn the lesson even if you think the story is probably made up.
That was easy enough to understand and it was fine.

Secondary school was a whole other thing, way worse.

It seems religious schools vary a lot. I'm going to have to see how full on this one is, and perhaps we try it. I can always get DD on the waiting list for school 3, and move her if we really need to, but obviously I'd much rather she was settled and happy from the start.

OP posts:
mynameiscalypso · 20/04/2023 21:04

This might be a step too far - and I've only really done it to keep my DH happy - but we met with the local priest a couple of times as he's also a governor of the school. I have always made it clear that I'm an atheist and I knows that I don't go to mass ever but he's very welcoming and always very kind when I've spoken to him, acknowledging our differences without any pressure on me to convert. I am hoping that sets the tone for the school as well.

Orangebadger · 20/04/2023 21:05

@ScaredHeart yes you could try that, or home school for the term. Looking back through the thread, I live in a neighbouring part of the world. Am curious which this other school is? Is there not a bus that you can get? Or cycle?

Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:07

Lastnamedidntstick · 20/04/2023 20:41

Why would you be concerned about CSA in a catholic school, any more than any other school?

priests and nuns no longer teach in schools. The only access they’ll have to the priest is at mass, and unless the school safeguarding is shit they won’t be alone as they’ll always be with their class. Tbh I think there’s more of a risk from music teachers etc in school, where they can have 1:1 lessons.

our school was attached to a church- physically. They still only saw the priest at mass or on the rare occasion he came across for assembly.

i don’t feel I was indoctrinated. I went to catholic school right up until 6th form, back when we did have priests teaching. Tbh the priests were amazing, very open, and taught us to think and challenge. They used to advise contraception for us 6th formers, for example, their logic being if you’re going to have sex outside marriage, might as well break some more rules while you’re at it 😂, and contraception is a better option than abortion.

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I'm concerned about all adults, tbh. :/ But CSA is rampant in religious institutions, especially where males are required to be celibate. I hear you re music teachers, too. :/

I went to a convent school. We were shown horrific videos of abortions, and we all left that class pretty traumatized. This would have been in the late eighties. There was absolutely zero expectation that any of us would be having sex til we were legally wed!

OP posts:
Northe · 20/04/2023 21:08

My children are at a Catholic primary which teaches the Catholic curriculum enthusiastivally but has Sikh, Muslim, atheist, agnostic kids etc. The head is fantastic and approachable and I think if that was the case for your school I would go for it. The Catholic teachings they focus on are often the principles you want instilled in your kids (eg. If you see someone being wronged, call it out). I don't think all schools will have quite the same ethos so I really encourage you to look round and be open about your views.

Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:08

LancreWowhawk · 20/04/2023 20:43

I didn't even go to a faith school, but it was still faith schooling that made me acknowledge and embrace my atheism. All the research I did while looking for a primary school for DD forced me to really think about it. I would never have described myself confidently as an atheist. I definitely would now.

I hear you!!!

OP posts:
Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:11

Lastnamedidntstick · 20/04/2023 20:47

Oh and also to add- while I was initially against a catholic education for my children, I did believe they should learn about it. If they didn’t understand the issues around religion, how do they challenge it? RE classes were RE, but all faiths, so they learned a lot about a wide variety of beliefs.

have to say it was actually pretty effective and they can both discuss the pros and cons of religion and explain why they do or don’t believe. One, for example, believes it’s more about community, going to mass and seeing your friends, volunteering in the church, making friend with similar values etc. I think she has a point!

I am fine for my children to learn about religions. We already have, as we home ed. But I don't like schools telling children that their religion is the only true religion. I don't like the forced praying, and praising god, when quite frankly the state of this place leaves a lot to be angry about.

OP posts:
Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:18

Houseplantmad · 20/04/2023 20:50

Also in SW London. I can’t imagine anywhere in this part of London where you’d have to walk an hour for an alternative school. There are tons of schools around! I walk 10 mins to work and pass three!

Have you spoken to schools directly rather than just the local authority. They’re notoriously slow and out of touch with what’s happening on the ground when it comes to admissions (I work in this area).
In any case, rolls are falling here and everywhere else so I’d be amazed if you don’t have several choices by the end of the summer term.
As for catholic schools, I went to a primary and secondary ones and my DCs went to CoE. It was much more watered down religion wise and a lovely school. I would never have sent them to a catholic school though.

There are, but they are all full, apart from the two I've mentioned. I've found the lady at the LA pretty on the ball, and more forthcoming than the schools I've contacted directly. I might have missed a school as we only really be started looking a few weeks ago, and my priority was sorting my elder child out first, which is sorted, thank goodness, so now for the little one. I'll look around again at my options, but really I'd like something close to home, walkable.

I also feel semi-hopeful of a place at school 3, by September, but it might not happen and I need a plan for that possibility. I also think I should at least check out the RC one. We looked around school 3, it comes highly rated but I don't feel as confident about it as I did the school for my eldest, which gave off great vibes. So, lots to research, consider and decide.

OP posts:
SirCharlesRainier · 20/04/2023 21:18

sashagabadon · 20/04/2023 17:39

Well your choice but if you do send your kids don’t make comments about “ ramming bible stories down kids throats” or telling kids “ god is real” because they will absolutely do both. Because it is what catholics believe and it is a catholic school.
It would be massively offensive to do so. Just send your kids to the other school and then you don’t need to worry about it.

Fuck that, this is a state-funded institution that discriminates based on religion. It's a disgraceful situation. If they don't want to be offended they could always stop using taxpayers' money to indoctrinate children.

Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:20

NeverTrustAPoliceman · 20/04/2023 21:01

I can't do a link from my phone but you will find (if you don't already know it) some helpful advice and info on the Humanist Society website and fb page. They campaign against faith schools for the reasons many posters have expressed here.

Thank you. I looked at their stuff many years ago when my firstborn was a little tot, though I'd had my heart set on home edding for a while, for various reasons. You've prompted me to look again, so thank you.

OP posts:
OscarsAmmonite · 20/04/2023 21:22

SirCharlesRainier · 20/04/2023 21:18

Fuck that, this is a state-funded institution that discriminates based on religion. It's a disgraceful situation. If they don't want to be offended they could always stop using taxpayers' money to indoctrinate children.

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Meh - tax payers' money is used for all sorts of things.

Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:28

sleepyscientist · 20/04/2023 21:02

DS is at a Catholic school which is greatly over subscribed and you have get father to provide evidence of baptism to even be considered for a place. I'm an atheist but DH is Catholic yes they are taught that god is real but they also cover the normal curriculum. I love the family ethics of the school that comes from the school being linked to the church and he will likely continue to the Catholic secondary if he gets a place 🤞🏻

When the time comes for physic etc we will see where DS goes but I like him having Catholic values

I find religion very separating of peoples, excluding folk based on their beliefs or lack of. Main golden rule can be found across all religions, and indeed just general common sense and decency. Don't need religion to have good morals.

I don't think it's healthy for our minds. I have a lot to juggle, and the prospect of a massive commute for me and DD, plus me having to get home again afterwards adding pretty much four hours of walking, or potentially a slow bus through outer London traffic as time I don't want to waste, we may be better off with the RC school with my balancing certain things she is taught as fact, with an understanding that it's not fact after all. This is obviously problematic as it means she will doubt whether anything else the teachers teach her is accurate or not. I'll cross that bridge as and when. Argh.

And as I've also said, local is better for friendships, imo. I couldn't go to my best friend's house at primary without a parent driving. She lived 25 minutes in the opposite direction from the school than we did. I'd like an abundance of little local buddies, if possible.

OP posts:
Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:30

mynameiscalypso · 20/04/2023 21:04

This might be a step too far - and I've only really done it to keep my DH happy - but we met with the local priest a couple of times as he's also a governor of the school. I have always made it clear that I'm an atheist and I knows that I don't go to mass ever but he's very welcoming and always very kind when I've spoken to him, acknowledging our differences without any pressure on me to convert. I am hoping that sets the tone for the school as well.

I think I'll start with the head, get a feeling for the school, then deal with the church if need be.

OP posts:
Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:33

Orangebadger · 20/04/2023 21:05

@ScaredHeart yes you could try that, or home school for the term. Looking back through the thread, I live in a neighbouring part of the world. Am curious which this other school is? Is there not a bus that you can get? Or cycle?

I don't want to say, as I feel I've already been a bit outing. But the LA replied to my admissions for starting we were 1st on the list for the school I'm calling number 3 on this thread, but that there was a space at the one an hour's walk away. It's about a 15 minute drive, which I absolutely do not want to get into daily, for 40 weeks a year. Don't want to cycle of rely on the bus. And I want local friends, for DD and myself.

OP posts:
Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:35

Northe · 20/04/2023 21:08

My children are at a Catholic primary which teaches the Catholic curriculum enthusiastivally but has Sikh, Muslim, atheist, agnostic kids etc. The head is fantastic and approachable and I think if that was the case for your school I would go for it. The Catholic teachings they focus on are often the principles you want instilled in your kids (eg. If you see someone being wronged, call it out). I don't think all schools will have quite the same ethos so I really encourage you to look round and be open about your views.

Thank. Wise words. Though like I said upthread, we can instill morals and values without them being linked to any one religion. I'd be fine with that. Saying we do good things because we have learned that from an xtian perspective is not on.

OP posts:
Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:36

SirCharlesRainier · 20/04/2023 21:18

Fuck that, this is a state-funded institution that discriminates based on religion. It's a disgraceful situation. If they don't want to be offended they could always stop using taxpayers' money to indoctrinate children.

Show quote history

Exactly how I feel. I'm hacked off I'm in this position. I want faith out of schools. Then I think I'd gladly pick this cute little school.

OP posts:
Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:36

OscarsAmmonite · 20/04/2023 21:22

Meh - tax payers' money is used for all sorts of things.

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And maybe we should challenge where it's being misused!

OP posts:
Original poster
ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:37

Right. You've all been wonderful, I appreciate your time.
I'm all replied out, so will retire for the evening.

Thank you again, All.

OP posts:
Whatafool123 · 20/04/2023 22:01

ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 17:32

I had similar. Yes re god is watching everything. Weird pervert if so. I also had recurring nightmares about burning in hell. Not what I want for DD. But I do like how small the school is, and I like how close it is.

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Ignoring the Catholic aspect, small single firm schools can be a bit stifling as children get older. DD was very ready to leave hers by year 6. We have still sent DS, because they are great when they are little.

We are Catholics and so Catholic school works for us and I love the ethos and community feel, but I have to say they do spend a LOT of time in the Church or learning about religion one way and another. Some schools even have classes lead Mass on a Sunday every now and then. They're not compulsory generally, but kids don't like to be left out.

And you risk your child getting caught up in it all, and wanting to be baptised, make their Communion etc. It does happen occasionally.

Elsie20 · 20/04/2023 22:03

ScaredHeart · 20/04/2023 21:36

Exactly how I feel. I'm hacked off I'm in this position. I want faith out of schools. Then I think I'd gladly pick this cute little school.

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And here we go, exactly what I mean in these stupid debates.

firstly it was Catholics that were discriminated back in the day regarding education. The nuns were a massive part of bringing in education. Parents of Catholic schools are also TAXPAYERS and i definitely want my monies going towards Catholic schools. Catholic schools buildings are owned by the church and so is the land it's on. Yes they can have their own admissions because that was agreed with the government, but as for discrimination, that is ridiculous. They will welcome all if there is space if parents agree to be in sympathy of the ethos of the school so is not discrimination. If parents do not like faith schools there is many many schools that are solely state funded and owned by the government, so no need to go to a Catholic school.
this really does grate on me.
I have complete respect for atheists views without pouring my faith onto them and choosing non religious schools. Have complete respect for atheists attending Catholic schools and would welcome it, but sick of people mocking our schools and our faith, is that not just discriminating against my religion.

more aimed @SirCharlesRainier than you @ScaredHeart but as you agreed ive included you. I honestly didn't want to offend as I said in my previous post but again I said it would go this way as always.

Lillith111 · 20/04/2023 22:08

@Elsie20 but OP has no choice so there clearly isn’t enough state funded schools. And schools should be secular and have a national RS curriculum. People’s personal beliefs should not be presented to kids as facts. There’s a word for that. Indoctrination. And last I checked owning some land doesn’t entitle a large scale institution to indoctrinate kids with no critical thinking, questioning or differing views presented

Lillith111 · 20/04/2023 22:10

@Elsie20 i mean imagine if the only school you could send your kid to said God definitely wasn’t real and forced them to do a play about how the Bible is lies. You’d be hacked off I bet

Elsie20 · 20/04/2023 22:18

Lillith111 · 20/04/2023 22:08

@Elsie20 but OP has no choice so there clearly isn’t enough state funded schools. And schools should be secular and have a national RS curriculum. People’s personal beliefs should not be presented to kids as facts. There’s a word for that. Indoctrination. And last I checked owning some land doesn’t entitle a large scale institution to indoctrinate kids with no critical thinking, questioning or differing views presented

But she does have a choice. It's exactly that. If she feels so strongly against the Catholic faith then go to another school. It really is that simple. OP doesn't like the journey but you'll do what is best for your own child, like how my children's school was more than an hour walk too. That was my choice as I wanted my children at a Catholic school and not the one that was a 3 minute walk. There is school waiting lists, she could continue to HE. These are choices.

I don't want to sound mean to OP, I've enjoyed her posts and that she seriously looking into others opinions. I do not want to offend her in anyway, but this is a Catholic school and that is not going to change.

Elsie20 · 20/04/2023 22:19

Lillith111 · 20/04/2023 22:10

@Elsie20 i mean imagine if the only school you could send your kid to said God definitely wasn’t real and forced them to do a play about how the Bible is lies. You’d be hacked off I bet

No I wouldn't, I just wouldn't send them there

Lillith111 · 20/04/2023 22:20

@Elsie20 what if it was the only school in your village? That was the case for us.