Page 6 | Atheist in Roman Catholic Primary - experiences sought, please.

ScaredHeart · 2023-04-20T15:14:59+00:00

We have relocated and been advised that our two options going in at this stage to Year 3 are the Roman Catholic school, which is a very quick walk from home, or the no-religion school which is over an hour's walk away (traffic dire at peak times, I don't want to drive anyway). We could home ed in the hope that a closer non-religious school comes up for September - the LA says there is often movement at this stage in this borough. DD is happy to see out this term home edded, as am I, but equally, ok to start if a preferred place is offered. I am vehemently atheist. I cannot stand the religious imposition in schools. But the prospect of a short walk every day, Vs a very very long one, are giving me pause. I'd like for DD to make local friends, not ones who live over an hour's walk away, or further. I wonder how seriously pushy most Catholic primaries are in this regard. Atheist patents with any experience or views? We will not go to church. I don't want DD being told god is real. (Unless during now and then, proof materialises.) Other considerations. RC school is one-form entry. Non-religious one with current space is SIX-form entry. Non-religious one with no space but may have space in September is four-form. Would you pick the tiny RC school or the much bigger ones, if you had the choice?

Elsie20 · 20/04/2023 22:20

Elsie20 · 20/04/2023 22:19

No I wouldn't, I just wouldn't send them there

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I would walk the hour because it's my choice for my kids.

NeverTrustAPoliceman · 20/04/2023 22:22

OP, I realise you have sensibly checked out for the day but I have just seen an email from the Humanist Society and they have literally just published a new guide, in the last day or so, called Religion in Schools. From the little I read about it it looks as though it will be a great resource for you.

Elsie20 · 20/04/2023 22:22

Lillith111 · 20/04/2023 22:20

@Elsie20 what if it was the only school in your village? That was the case for us.

As previously said, I would travel at all cost because it's something that I strongly believe in.

fitnessmummy · 20/04/2023 22:37

If you shared your views with them then it's likely they won't accept you anyway

HerculesMulligan · 20/04/2023 22:38

Fwiw, I have been DMing the OP because I know the schools she’s considering and coincidentally, I do about 4/5ths of the journey she doesn’t want to do, because the RC school in question is absolutely perfect for my child in other respects. I’ve been very frank about my understanding of the way in which this school’s Catholic ethos is stitched through it, and she’ll see that if/when she tours and will be able to make up her own mind.

SteveBuscemisRheumyEye · 20/04/2023 22:38

The way you speak about Catholics suggests you should not send your children to a Catholic school.

Snugglemonkey · 21/04/2023 00:11

Lillith111 · 20/04/2023 22:08

@Elsie20 but OP has no choice so there clearly isn’t enough state funded schools. And schools should be secular and have a national RS curriculum. People’s personal beliefs should not be presented to kids as facts. There’s a word for that. Indoctrination. And last I checked owning some land doesn’t entitle a large scale institution to indoctrinate kids with no critical thinking, questioning or differing views presented

Absolutely. Parents are free to send children to Sunday schools or whatever, but every child has the right to an education free from indoctrination with religion.

IamThegreaterMole · 21/04/2023 00:34

You could try an appeal for the closer non-denominational school. Year 3 wouldn’t be an ICS appeal, so it may be possible to win. You wouldn’t be able to use religion as the grounds for appeal, but if you post in Primary Education there are some appeal experts there who might be able to help you find valid grounds.

SirCharlesRainier · 21/04/2023 07:48

Elsie20 · 20/04/2023 22:03

And here we go, exactly what I mean in these stupid debates.

firstly it was Catholics that were discriminated back in the day regarding education. The nuns were a massive part of bringing in education. Parents of Catholic schools are also TAXPAYERS and i definitely want my monies going towards Catholic schools. Catholic schools buildings are owned by the church and so is the land it's on. Yes they can have their own admissions because that was agreed with the government, but as for discrimination, that is ridiculous. They will welcome all if there is space if parents agree to be in sympathy of the ethos of the school so is not discrimination. If parents do not like faith schools there is many many schools that are solely state funded and owned by the government, so no need to go to a Catholic school.
this really does grate on me.
I have complete respect for atheists views without pouring my faith onto them and choosing non religious schools. Have complete respect for atheists attending Catholic schools and would welcome it, but sick of people mocking our schools and our faith, is that not just discriminating against my religion.

more aimed @SirCharlesRainier than you @ScaredHeart but as you agreed ive included you. I honestly didn't want to offend as I said in my previous post but again I said it would go this way as always.

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"Stupid", eh, @Elsie20 . You don't get it, do you? I, like the majority of the population, don't care about the history of it - history's full of people doing wrong and bad things. We care about the right thing being done now. I'm a taxpayer too and I don't assume that gives me a right to have whatever irrational beliefs i hold taught in schools.

We want children to be taught evidence based facts in schools. It's not an unreasonable expectation. We don't expect children to be taught (as fact) that Poseidon rules the sea, or that chocolate cures cancer, or that the earth rests on the back of a giant turtle - and beliefs about transubstantiation and Hell are no less ridiculous than those examples.

We owe children a duty of care, and that means not indoctrinating them with weird, harmful superstitions before they've developed the critical thinking skills to defend themselves. And certainly not by STATE FUNDED institutions. Would you be okay with an NHS hospital turning children away because of their parents' religion? (Ah, of course you would because there's probably another hospital an hour away that they can "choose".)

Again, it's a disgrace that @ScaredHeart and thousands more are in this position. I only thank god (!) that every passing year sees a further drop in the numbers and influence of this backwards, misogynistic cult so hopefully future parents might have a chance to of not finding themselves in this bind.

FL0 · 21/04/2023 07:51

SmurfHaribos · 20/04/2023 16:50

You could of course let the child go to the school and hear the other point of view. They could then make up their own minds.

This. You may be an atheist but it’s not you who is attending the school. Surely you want your child to be free to make up their own mind about belief systems , you as you have ?

Or do you plan to insist that your child hears nothing about anyone else’s view and opinions except you own until they hit their 16th birthday ?

Original poster

ScaredHeart · 21/04/2023 08:53

Whatafool123 · 20/04/2023 22:01

Ignoring the Catholic aspect, small single firm schools can be a bit stifling as children get older. DD was very ready to leave hers by year 6. We have still sent DS, because they are great when they are little.

We are Catholics and so Catholic school works for us and I love the ethos and community feel, but I have to say they do spend a LOT of time in the Church or learning about religion one way and another. Some schools even have classes lead Mass on a Sunday every now and then. They're not compulsory generally, but kids don't like to be left out.

And you risk your child getting caught up in it all, and wanting to be baptised, make their Communion etc. It does happen occasionally.

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Thanks for this. I did wonder about such a small school in that regard. Definitely will have a good think about that aspect.

I very much doubt she is the kind of child to want to get baptised. But I take your point.

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drpet49 · 21/04/2023 08:57

FL0 · 21/04/2023 07:51

This. You may be an atheist but it’s not you who is attending the school. Surely you want your child to be free to make up their own mind about belief systems , you as you have ?

Or do you plan to insist that your child hears nothing about anyone else’s view and opinions except you own until they hit their 16th birthday ?

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This!

slamfightbrightlight · 21/04/2023 08:57

Ours went to Catholic school 1 form entry, though only 30-40% are Catholic and that was reflected in the numbers doing communion and confirmation so all prep was done outside of class, not in class time.

Yes, there is a lot of Catholicism going on 😁but when DC went up to a non-faith secondary they knew far more about other world religions than peers who had been to non-denominational primaries, so I presume school must have done something right about offering a broad and balanced curriculum.

In any case, DH, myself and kids have all ended up agnostic/atheism so any attempts at indoctrination were all for naught really. What we did like was the small community feel of the school, genuine care towards the pupils, calm atmosphere and decent facilities.

Original poster

ScaredHeart · 21/04/2023 09:01

Elsie20 · 20/04/2023 22:03

And here we go, exactly what I mean in these stupid debates.

firstly it was Catholics that were discriminated back in the day regarding education. The nuns were a massive part of bringing in education. Parents of Catholic schools are also TAXPAYERS and i definitely want my monies going towards Catholic schools. Catholic schools buildings are owned by the church and so is the land it's on. Yes they can have their own admissions because that was agreed with the government, but as for discrimination, that is ridiculous. They will welcome all if there is space if parents agree to be in sympathy of the ethos of the school so is not discrimination. If parents do not like faith schools there is many many schools that are solely state funded and owned by the government, so no need to go to a Catholic school.
this really does grate on me.
I have complete respect for atheists views without pouring my faith onto them and choosing non religious schools. Have complete respect for atheists attending Catholic schools and would welcome it, but sick of people mocking our schools and our faith, is that not just discriminating against my religion.

more aimed @SirCharlesRainier than you @ScaredHeart but as you agreed ive included you. I honestly didn't want to offend as I said in my previous post but again I said it would go this way as always.

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Hi, Elsie

I too don't wish to upset anyone. I do feel though that religion has no place in schools, so I'm currently stuck between the local RC, or a long tedious chore of a commute, and the time factor is going to have a serious impact on various things, such as:
Amount of sleep/free time DD has
Availability of local friend near our home
Ability to partake in extra curricular activities
Time for me to be working - if I have to walk her there and back, I won't get home til 10, then I'll have to leave at 2.30.

So sadly, there just aren't "many many state schools", certainly none with space for my DD, other than the one 2 miles away.

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Original poster

ScaredHeart · 21/04/2023 09:02

NeverTrustAPoliceman · 20/04/2023 22:22

OP, I realise you have sensibly checked out for the day but I have just seen an email from the Humanist Society and they have literally just published a new guide, in the last day or so, called Religion in Schools. From the little I read about it it looks as though it will be a great resource for you.

Ha, what crazy timing! Thanks for the pointer. I will go look.

OP posts:

Original poster

ScaredHeart · 21/04/2023 09:05

HerculesMulligan · 20/04/2023 22:38

Fwiw, I have been DMing the OP because I know the schools she’s considering and coincidentally, I do about 4/5ths of the journey she doesn’t want to do, because the RC school in question is absolutely perfect for my child in other respects. I’ve been very frank about my understanding of the way in which this school’s Catholic ethos is stitched through it, and she’ll see that if/when she tours and will be able to make up her own mind.

Hi! 😊

Thank you again for all your help and time. I've emailed the school and am awaiting a response re a viewing date.

OP posts:

Original poster

ScaredHeart · 21/04/2023 09:06

SteveBuscemisRheumyEye · 20/04/2023 22:38

The way you speak about Catholics suggests you should not send your children to a Catholic school.

Not sure I have been down on catholics as individuals, more the whole institution of it being in schools.

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Original poster

ScaredHeart · 21/04/2023 09:07

Snugglemonkey · 21/04/2023 00:11

Absolutely. Parents are free to send children to Sunday schools or whatever, but every child has the right to an education free from indoctrination with religion.

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Yes. This is how I feel.

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Original poster

ScaredHeart · 21/04/2023 09:08

IamThegreaterMole · 21/04/2023 00:34

You could try an appeal for the closer non-denominational school. Year 3 wouldn’t be an ICS appeal, so it may be possible to win. You wouldn’t be able to use religion as the grounds for appeal, but if you post in Primary Education there are some appeal experts there who might be able to help you find valid grounds.

Thank you for info. But if the secular school doesn't have space, they can't simply fit my DD in? Or can they?

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Original poster

ScaredHeart · 21/04/2023 09:10

SirCharlesRainier · 21/04/2023 07:48

"Stupid", eh, @Elsie20 . You don't get it, do you? I, like the majority of the population, don't care about the history of it - history's full of people doing wrong and bad things. We care about the right thing being done now. I'm a taxpayer too and I don't assume that gives me a right to have whatever irrational beliefs i hold taught in schools.

We want children to be taught evidence based facts in schools. It's not an unreasonable expectation. We don't expect children to be taught (as fact) that Poseidon rules the sea, or that chocolate cures cancer, or that the earth rests on the back of a giant turtle - and beliefs about transubstantiation and Hell are no less ridiculous than those examples.

We owe children a duty of care, and that means not indoctrinating them with weird, harmful superstitions before they've developed the critical thinking skills to defend themselves. And certainly not by STATE FUNDED institutions. Would you be okay with an NHS hospital turning children away because of their parents' religion? (Ah, of course you would because there's probably another hospital an hour away that they can "choose".)

Again, it's a disgrace that @ScaredHeart and thousands more are in this position. I only thank god (!) that every passing year sees a further drop in the numbers and influence of this backwards, misogynistic cult so hopefully future parents might have a chance to of not finding themselves in this bind.

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These are my sentiments about religion in schools.

So my OP was really wondering if any atheists had managed to comfortably navigate an RC school with their children. I would really rather religion was gone from schools.

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Original poster

ScaredHeart · 21/04/2023 09:13

FL0 · 21/04/2023 07:51

This. You may be an atheist but it’s not you who is attending the school. Surely you want your child to be free to make up their own mind about belief systems , you as you have ?

Or do you plan to insist that your child hears nothing about anyone else’s view and opinions except you own until they hit their 16th birthday ?

Show quote history

Children can be too influenced by teachers and peer pressure.
I think it is fairer to expose them to these ideas as adults.

She already has exposure to other people's views and opinions. I don't keep her locked up at home. But at school, I'd rather they focused on maths, English, art, georgraphy, history, sport, play, well-being, and having fun. Maybe Sunday school for children whose parents want them involved in their religion.

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Original poster

ScaredHeart · 21/04/2023 09:14

slamfightbrightlight · 21/04/2023 08:57

Ours went to Catholic school 1 form entry, though only 30-40% are Catholic and that was reflected in the numbers doing communion and confirmation so all prep was done outside of class, not in class time.

Yes, there is a lot of Catholicism going on 😁but when DC went up to a non-faith secondary they knew far more about other world religions than peers who had been to non-denominational primaries, so I presume school must have done something right about offering a broad and balanced curriculum.

In any case, DH, myself and kids have all ended up agnostic/atheism so any attempts at indoctrination were all for naught really. What we did like was the small community feel of the school, genuine care towards the pupils, calm atmosphere and decent facilities.

Thank you. Lots to think about!

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Mischance · 21/04/2023 09:19

I used to go into schools to do singing workshops. One catholic school had a massive - and I mean massive - sign in the entry saying "Trust the paraclete"!!!! - alongside a massive - and I mean massive - Christ bleeding on the cross. Utterly gross and totally unacceptable in a state-funded school.

Go into your school visit with a list of questions; keep your ears open for the subliminal messages going on; be clear about your wish not to have your child told that god is fact when in reality god is belief - which is fine, but it needs to be presented as such. Be clear that you do not want her in daily religious observations. Ask about whether festivals from other religions are observed for children whose parents subscribe to these.

There is a huge difference between the teaching of the existence of religions and presenting one religion as fact.

I am agnostic - I do not know whether there is a god, and do not think anyone else knows either - belief is a wholly different (and entirely valid) thing.

Top if my list of concerns would be guilt. Adults among my acquaintance who went to catholic schools carry a massive burden of guilt. I would not want that for my child.

HerculesMulligan · 21/04/2023 11:30

"be clear about your wish not to have your child told that god is fact when in reality god is belief - which is fine, but it needs to be presented as such. Be clear that you do not want her in daily religious observations."

Any Catholic school is unlikely to pass this test. Other parents have chosen it explicitly for those characteristics.

Elsie20 · 21/04/2023 12:19

SirCharlesRainier · 21/04/2023 07:48

"Stupid", eh, @Elsie20 . You don't get it, do you? I, like the majority of the population, don't care about the history of it - history's full of people doing wrong and bad things. We care about the right thing being done now. I'm a taxpayer too and I don't assume that gives me a right to have whatever irrational beliefs i hold taught in schools.

We want children to be taught evidence based facts in schools. It's not an unreasonable expectation. We don't expect children to be taught (as fact) that Poseidon rules the sea, or that chocolate cures cancer, or that the earth rests on the back of a giant turtle - and beliefs about transubstantiation and Hell are no less ridiculous than those examples.

We owe children a duty of care, and that means not indoctrinating them with weird, harmful superstitions before they've developed the critical thinking skills to defend themselves. And certainly not by STATE FUNDED institutions. Would you be okay with an NHS hospital turning children away because of their parents' religion? (Ah, of course you would because there's probably another hospital an hour away that they can "choose".)

Again, it's a disgrace that @ScaredHeart and thousands more are in this position. I only thank god (!) that every passing year sees a further drop in the numbers and influence of this backwards, misogynistic cult so hopefully future parents might have a chance to of not finding themselves in this bind.

Show quote history

This is exactly what I mean by stupid, no one, well definitely not me, is saying what to believe in. I completely respect your belief and would never try to change your mind or force mine onto you. I would never tell you what to teach your child because youre free to do any of that.

what you are saying, is like you have a right in how my child is educated or taught. That I'm wrong for bringing my child up in a faith. That I'm brainwashing them (even though mine are adults now)

The fact is no one is telling anyone choose a Catholic school or any faith school and go against what you believe in. If that is what you do choose, you're being hypercritical to your own beliefs.

In all respect to OP she is choosing schools in year 3 after HE. If she applied at reception age, her choice would be a lot greater. She is in SW London for god sake. If I made an application for year 3, I know my choice of a Catholic school would be very slim but that would be down to me, not any fault of the government.

your comment about the NHS is ridiculous and what is more ridiculous is your believe you know my answer. Facts are I work for the NHS and never would I turn anyone way, just like I pointed out that an atheist would be very welcome in a catholic school.