Removing reward badges on first pay back as punishment for behaviour in two zoom classes?

[ConcernedAboutRules]

Basically, DS who is normally very well behaved has been playing the class jokester on one or two zoom calls. He has been warned previously for this. Nothing too serious in my opinion. Now teacher has told him to expect to hand over all the badges and special jumper he's earned for various things and that he will no longer be on the school council etc. as soon as he arrives back during morning registration. Am I the only one thinking this is really unreasonable punishment given the situation and the fact he's known as 'the badge kid'?

IMO all this behaviour is part of the same thing. External locus. He cares vastly too much what others think of him.

Badge boy, all about what teachers think of him.

Playing up in class, all about what his classmates think of him.

Deleting messages, all about what you think of him.

Crying inconsolably about losing status, see above.

Grabbing another child's stickers, caring what that child thinks.

None of it is about doing the right thing because of his strong sense of ethics. By this age kids should have a fairly robust ethical structure, in fact it's normally much more black and white than adults'.

Misjudged things you might be doing... congratulating him on results, prizes and stickers rather than effort. Saying you're proud of him for achievements rather than checking what he is proud of himself. Recognizing achievements that are actually his. Attendance and punctuality are actually to do with parents, not children. He shouldn't be proud of that.

If he tells you about an achievement, ask what he's proud of. If he talks about helping someone or doing something, recognise the intent, not the act or the result.

He desperately needs an internal sense of self and a moral code. Because he's clearly at the age when adult praise matters less and peers matter more. Very dangerous time for a child with no internal locus.

All lockdown really wondering if he should see someone at this point.

Was there no hint of misbehaviour before?

Has he started watching You Tubers or something which has given him "attitude"?

I was asking if it was private school as all this emphasis on being on the school council and other titles/roles I cant remember and different colour jumpers seemed more likely in a private school than a state school. Normally in a state school such outward displays of a child's 'status' are normally discouraged which is why they have uniform so you can't tell the kids that have more money etc basednon what they are wearing. I would be seriously questioning a school that thought it was OK for a child (in the case OPs child) to wear such symbols of status. Yes it might have made OPs child feel good but how did it make the other children who didn't have these status symbols feel?!

@MrsTerryPratchett

IMO all this behaviour is part of the same thing. External locus. He cares vastly too much what others think of him.

Badge boy, all about what teachers think of him.

Playing up in class, all about what his classmates think of him.

Deleting messages, all about what you think of him.

Crying inconsolably about losing status, see above.

Grabbing another child's stickers, caring what that child thinks.

None of it is about doing the right thing because of his strong sense of ethics. By this age kids should have a fairly robust ethical structure, in fact it's normally much more black and white than adults'.

Misjudged things you might be doing... congratulating him on results, prizes and stickers rather than effort. Saying you're proud of him for achievements rather than checking what he is proud of himself. Recognizing achievements that are actually his. Attendance and punctuality are actually to do with parents, not children. He shouldn't be proud of that.

If he tells you about an achievement, ask what he's proud of. If he talks about helping someone or doing something, recognise the intent, not the act or the result.

He desperately needs an internal sense of self and a moral code. Because he's clearly at the age when adult praise matters less and peers matter more. Very dangerous time for a child with no internal locus.

Yes I think this was what I was trying to get at with my clumsy posts. I think you see this a lot in schools where there are lots of different reward systems and behaviour systems that focus in on extrinsic reward rather than the intrisic reward fo being a good person and treating others with respect etc. The two need to go hand in hand. I think he needs help now to see this for himself - in my school we have play therapists and learning mentors that meet with children and attempt to reset this. Does your school have similar?

In the nicest possible way of your are VERY strict at home and he goes to a competitive school with high standards maybe he needs the pressure taken off of him?

No one can be perfect and held to high standards all the time. Kids need to be kids.

I'm not condoning what he's done but living in heat could feel like a pressure environment at that age can cause you to explode.

I'd give him the opportunity to gain all his stuff back tomorrow by showing you he means he's sorry by behaving. Give him strategies on how to react when others mention the badges etc. Because I'm sure there's some loving his fall from high - some kids absolutely live when the top dog comes down and will be hurtful over this.

Take the pressure off at home. Make it his safe space where he can test the boundaries and learn those lessons kids need to learn.

I've worked in education and with children for many years and seen many a kid crack under pressure.

@Bunnybigears

I was asking if it was private school as all this emphasis on being on the school council and other titles/roles I cant remember and different colour jumpers seemed more likely in a private school than a state school. Normally in a state school such outward displays of a child's 'status' are normally discouraged which is why they have uniform so you can't tell the kids that have more money etc basednon what they are wearing. I would be seriously questioning a school that thought it was OK for a child (in the case OPs child) to wear such symbols of status. Yes it might have made OPs child feel good but how did it make the other children who didn't have these status symbols feel?!

That's not quite true. We have a different coloured jumper that's earned by someone who has displayed positive qualities every week - kindness, looking after someone, being helpful etc. They wear it for a week and then pass it back. Lots of schools also have badges for school council etc. When children derive all their self esteem and status from these extrinsic things is when it gets out of control.

That's not quite true. We have a different coloured jumper that's earned by someone who has displayed positive qualities every week - kindness, looking after someone, being helpful etc. They wear it for a week and then pass it back.
See thats fine thats like glorified star of the week, OPs DS has had the jumper so long he doesnt actually own the normal school uniform jumper.

@ConcernedAboutRules

Have just spoken to the school DS has not reacted to the change well and when another kid asked about his badges and suggested he'd told off he tried to rip the other kids sticks off it got physical. The punishment will be suspended until he's had a week to settle back in as average joe pupil. The school apparently wanted a phone call this evening in any case as internal all be it suspended exclusion is for the behaviour which happen today He's also lied about what a teacher said again.

As for the reason for my phone call the conversation went more like this before the class started for register as to not attract attention:

Teacher: DS welcome back hang your coat up and we will have a chat.
DS: Hello miss I’m sorry for what happened.
Teacher: I’m sorry too but what I said stands and as I understand it, you're in trouble at home as well, it's a bit late now.
DS: Oh, come on miss what's it got to do with you what I did with my mums' phone?
Teacher: You have lied about what was going on at school and as you know online classes are subject to school rules don't backchat.
Teacher: (hands him the card which has also been confiscation) this is for your stickers I don't think you need to be wearing stickers from months ago in any case please take them off or I'll have to confiscate them.
DS: But miss I wasn't the only one X and Y where...
Teacher right let's talk outside. Important to note teacher says DS WAS NOT upset at this point other than trying to blame shift.

School is reviewing their rewards policy and teacher says she will be doing a sticker sweep in the morning of the class and dealing with other offenders on the zoom. As someone said earlier it's not as if the teacher called the class to attention to watch and announced it to everyone even if his punishment is highly visible due to its nature. I'm wondering at what point we went wrong with the rewards because it seemed HE liked them even keeping the stickers quite large ones taped on himself I'm surprised so many here where against that given, they are a good thing. I'm trying to frame this as imagine you're new to the school / having a fresh start. So, badge boy is no more and I'll be buying him his own blue jumper tomorrow.

So once again , what actually happened was completely different to what DS said and all the things you wanted to complain about, thought wasn't fair and repeatedly questioned posters over didn't actually happen.

Your kid fucked up massively, in different ways. However, as I said before now it's time for both of you to move on.

You're taking this ridiculously hard though and very personally,nearly as hard as he is. He's not the badge kid anymore and you're not the badge kid's mum anymore.

You need to get over it, so he can and work on being simply a nice,good,average kid. It'll have to be enough for both of you. Much healthier too.

It makes quite a big difference if it is private school as they may have a different approach to behaviour. Also at the end of the day they may not want a child there/you may choose to go elsewhere. That's all.

I think if you read my other posts I've been quite supportive, I just hadn't considered at the time it might be private. Which it isn't so all good.

Good luck OP. Definitely stay in contact with school, hope he settles back in soon.

I don't agree with removing things that were already earned.

I’m a teacher and have seen so many kids go through behaviour phases, the key things that have had a positive impact on behaviour is really praising good behaviour and parents having a good relationship with school. Make sure he knows he can talk to you and confide in you without judgement, if kids in my class make mistakes and we meet with parents I think it’s always important to talk through why it was a problem, why the consequence is suitable and what we would expect of them in future.

Can you take up something brand new together to improve him self esteem? If he can spend time working things out with you or solving problems so that he can get good at it he may feel proud!

the key things that have had a positive impact on behaviour is really praising good behaviour

This child has had constant praise (jumpers, stickers, badges). What he needs is a good sense of self that isn't dependent on praise.

My DD has had very judicious praise for intent not outcome, which I think works much better.

@SoupDragon

All lockdown really wondering if he should see someone at this point.

Was there no hint of misbehaviour before?

Has he started watching You Tubers or something which has given him "attitude"?

I am thinking now I've taken his devices I ought to take another look at what he's been watching.

@MrsTerryPratchett

IMO all this behaviour is part of the same thing. External locus. He cares vastly too much what others think of him.

Badge boy, all about what teachers think of him.

Playing up in class, all about what his classmates think of him.

Deleting messages, all about what you think of him.

Crying inconsolably about losing status, see above.

Grabbing another child's stickers, caring what that child thinks.

None of it is about doing the right thing because of his strong sense of ethics. By this age kids should have a fairly robust ethical structure, in fact it's normally much more black and white than adults'.

Misjudged things you might be doing... congratulating him on results, prizes and stickers rather than effort. Saying you're proud of him for achievements rather than checking what he is proud of himself. Recognizing achievements that are actually his. Attendance and punctuality are actually to do with parents, not children. He shouldn't be proud of that.

If he tells you about an achievement, ask what he's proud of. If he talks about helping someone or doing something, recognise the intent, not the act or the result.

He desperately needs an internal sense of self and a moral code. Because he's clearly at the age when adult praise matters less and peers matter more. Very dangerous time for a child with no internal locus.

Yes as I say I think he may need some additional help I'm seriously thinking of getting him to take down his certificates and stuff off his wall for his own good.

It sounds like he messed up big time, in terms of punishment at home - to be honest I’d make sure it’s clear you don’t approve of his behaviour and support the teacher then id give him a hug and tell him how much you love him. He sounds like a good kid who perhaps got a bit over confident in his position as the ‘badge kid’, they’ve all had a tough time and he’s having to face the consequences - it’s so hard being a parent sometimes

Yes as I say I think he may need some additional help I'm seriously thinking of getting him to take down his certificates and stuff off his wall for his own good.

Doing it now it will just seem as further punishment. He'll have "nothing" left. Long term it might be beneficial, but short term might send him into an even bigger tailspin.

Instead leave it a week or two. Suggest redecorating/painting his bedroom. Suggest swapping them for some posters. Make it more grown up, about him and his likes /interests etc.

The awards will have to go to make room for all that. He can choose to throw away or keep in a folder /box.

Them disappearing naturally rather than a result of all this will be easier to adjust to and healthier.

Definitely don't start taking more awards off him. Yes he (and you) need to realise their lack of importance but now is not the time. As a pp said do it as a natural part of redecorating/reorganising his room. Does he do any team sports etc where he can learn to be proud of his involvement in a team or be proud of his team members etc. There does seem to be an unhealthy fixation on his achievements and his rewards. Some good team building/working with others type activities where having fun is the reward (no badges or certificates) would help o not the bloomin scouts or you will be swimming in badges

I'm seriously thinking of getting him to take down his certificates and stuff off his wall for his own good.

OK that would feel like a punishment. And possibly unhelpful.

I would start to look at his behaviour both positive and negative and tease out intent. I've been doing it for years with DD so it's not going to work immediately. For example, he tells on another child. You ask, "are you worried about their safety or are you trying to get them in trouble?" He gets an attendance badge. "I should really get that for dropping you at school on time" and laugh. He gets a badge for good conduct. You ask what was the conduct, what he's proud of, what he thinks he could improve on.

Also work on examining other children's behaviour. For example recently DD did a great project and handed it in early. She wanted a good grade. I said "regardless of your grade do you think you worked hard and did a good job". She did. Then another child copied her format. She came home and complained. I said exactly what happened. She said he had the same format, she asked him why and he said "maybe I was inspired by you". I said, "well he was honest but he probably shouldn't have copied". Showing his honesty means she sees intent, not just the act of copying.

Worth a try. Just stop the gushing praise.

The reward system at your son's school seems very strange. Excessive parading of attendance rewards etc. Plus the fact that the same child can be head of house, monitor, class captain and whatever else and for several years running plus the golden jumper. So this child was set up to be king of the hill and he paraded his awards and is called the badge kid. I would love to hear what the other students in his class and their parents think when yet again, badge boy gets yet another award, accolade, responsibility, golden crown. And then, this kid who is strutting around the school like he owns the place, 'suddenly' under lockdown gives the finger on zoom, winds the teacher up, is rude, gets other kids involved, deletes phone messages and then carries on being rude when his teacher tries to discipline him.

I think you need to think about how inappropriate it was for him to parade his rewards in the way that he did and the effect that this has had on his ego rather than the effect that removing these crowns has on him. He clearly believes that they gave him special protection and that he was untouchable.

It all sounds totally inappropriate for a 10 year old and I am fairly shocked that such a situation was allowed to develop over three years without someone pointing out how unhealthy it was and how damaging to the other children who were missing out on school leadership positions. I cannot imagine this happening in any of the 4 schools my children have attended.

Teacher here. Your ds earned those certificates and badges for entirely separate behaviour. In my opinion you can't punish one incident by removing all previous rewards for other behaviour. That's very unfair.

I agree he's going a bit OTT with the stickers and the badges shouldn't define him but he worked hard to get them over a period of time, it shouldn't now be that is completely erased.

Cut him some slack or else this could turn into a self fulfilling prophecy where his behaviour quickly spirals downwards because he now sees himself as 'the naughty one'. You really need to try and avoid this.

For me, privileges were removed and ‘golden time’ taken away. So while the rest of the class got to play at the end of the day, I had to sit and work in the corner. House points were taken away. All little things but when you earned these things it was hard to see them taken away but it was well deserved for the cruel behaviour. It sticks with me, but not as a traumatic event.. I never had a single punishment through the rest of my school time, no telling off. I just had one moment where I slipped up. I was showing off, trying to be cool.. I remember the shame of not getting to play most of all. I don’t begrudge it in retrospect. My mum was a teacher in the same school as well, so I got punishment at home too. No escaping that when your teacher is your parent’s colleague!

I've read all your posts OP but not all the replies (it's a long thread!) So apologies if I'm just repeating stuff.
I agree with the comments that your DS has learned to associate his self worth with external evidence of "success" and you need to focus on separating those things. This is a tough time for you all, and there are going to be some hard lessons to be learned.
Whilst the "badge boy" nickname may have been viewed with pride by him - and you - it's possible that his classmates didn't feel so positive about it. I am afraid that it is probably inevitable that there will be some children who are happy to see the "golden boy" brought down to earth and will make no secret of it. The period of adjustment will be hard, but he could benefit from this in the long term.
He knows he's messed up and is probably a very lonely and sad little boy right now. He needs to know that he is loved and that love is not conditional on the badges and titles he held. Of course it's ok to make it clear that you are upset about his actions but try not to focus on the loss of status at school etc. He needs to understand that you are upset that he was rude, lied etc, not because he can't wear a golden jumper and isn't house captain. And that you love him unconditionally and want to help. If he feels pushed away and that nobody values him his behaviour is likely to deteriorate, not improve. Not that I'm suggesting that you just let it go, but don't be too harsh.
I would not encourage him to try to win his awards back if I were in your position. That brings everything back to the external validation issue - he (and you) need to work on self worth instead. The issue isn't the badges here.
My DH was brought up in a family where "winning" was very important. He says he always felt that his parents' love was conditional on him meeting their expectations. Rewards for doing that were generous but punishments for failing to do so were harsh. It's had quite a negative impact on him and his siblings and we've tried really hard not to do that with our children. Obviously we are happy to see them reach their goals but as another poster has said we praise intent, effort, persistence etc, not just results. It's so important not to be afraid of failure, because that, ultimately is limiting.
It's going to be hard for you all, but you do have the opportunity to address the underlying issues before they get bigger. In the long term both you and your son could be happier as a result of this coming to light now. Forget about the bloody badges though - they don't matter.

Sorry if I’m missing the point here...My DD had a very shiny headteacher’s award sticker that she was v proud of. It lost its ‘stick’ and she taped it back on-it still only lasted a few days! Have you been taking all the stickers and badges off to wash the jumper and then taping each one back on again every time?!

I think that's really rotten and unduly harsh!

I'm probably going to be in trouble for this but having read your updates, I reckon we have all totally wasted our time.