Current school and new schools contacting each other

[drspouse]

I have posted in SEN about this but this is a bit more of a general issue.

Our DS is in Y2 and his current school are saying they can't meet his needs. We're just waiting for the outcome of the EHCP panel but we are sure they are going to approve 1:1 (he currently has this) and then it's a case of what else we think he needs that we may need to appeal for.

Current school are pushing us to look at special schools so they can get rid. We think he could manage a smaller mainstream school (currently things like playground noise, noisy classrooms next to each other etc. are a struggle for him).

We rang one smaller mainstream school that was recommended to us by a carer who knows the local schools. Instead of ringing us back, the other school rang his current school (and didn't ring us back).

We are not sure if we can do anything about this. We wanted to contact smaller mainstream schools once we have his EHCP confirmed. But what can we do to prevent his current school from talking to them (and them from talking to his current school)?

Do we HAVE to tell other schools where he is currently? Are they allowed to talk to other schools about him?

[https://www.brent.kent.sch.uk/uploads/5/5/3/4/55342805/gdpr_privacy_notice_for_pupils_and_families.pdf This]] is an interesting document from a primary school about sharing of pupil information. I don't know its legal status, but it describes what would be my 'lived experience' within a school.

It talks, for example, about routinely sharing information with schools that their pupils attend after leaving them. Safeguarding considerations do drive the sharing of information to prevent e.g. parents or others moving children from school to school and information being lost as soon as safeguarding concerns are unearthed.

This Better link

I have a fair bit of experience in SEN and education. I don’t know you or your son but I would suggest the following:

1. The school are unlikely to be trying to “put other schools off” if they feel they can’t meet his needs.

1. The new school are quite possible worrying how they would cope, and are being slow to respond and hoping they don’t have to. It’s all well and good to say the EHCP has 1:1 attached but in practice the recruitment of TAs who can cope and do the right hours etc is often a nightmare, especially in tiny schools who will not have any staffing capacity whatsoever.

1. I have seen hundreds of private psych reports. Honestly I would proceed with caution before you decide to take their word and diagnosis over everyone else’s. It is often vastly different and often doesn’t take into account how the child is presenting in school, which is the bit you really need.

1. I honestly don’t think the two schools are engaging in a vendetta against you. I think maybe you’re just so used to having to fight for everything that it’s become your default mode. Maybe consider saving your energy for other battles rather than tying yourself up in knots with this data protection issue. If you agreed to statutory assessment did you not agree to information sharing between educational professionals at some point?

I have a feeling you won’t like much of what I’ve said, but it’s meant kindly and it does come from a lot of experience. I hope you find your little lad a place he can thrive in.

Excellent post by Tingface

Ting can you actually read what I wrote?
He has a diagnosis. From a psychiatrist. Not a "private psychologist's report". Psychiatrists, being actual doctors, rule out other diagnoses. He's ruled out autism.
I have never said school are lying. Everyone else has said that. He's capable of more than he's doing in school.
If another school can't meet his needs, fine, but without talking to us, how on earth can they tell?
The current school HAS ASKED US for permission to share information in other circumstances.
By not asking us here, they are saying they know which schools will suit him and which won't, and cutting off our choice of schools. They have said he will never go back to mainstream. They have no crystal ball and clearly cannot say this about a 7 year old, but they are preventing us from talking to schools they "don't approve of".

I've taught in a variety of schools for over 14 years and worked with many SEN children. A school will not say they can't meet his needs lightly and if they are suggesting an SEN school then please consider what they are suggesting seriously. To suggest a child comes out of mainstream is not something any school wants to do and they will be thinking about the best for your child. If your child has also had PRU intervention then a lot of professionals would have discussed this and used their professional experience and expertise to come to that conclusion. I've had some amazing students, including ones with diagnosed and undiagnosed MLD, ASD and ADHD, move to SEN schools and absolutely flourish. The ethos, environment and support is unique and supports children with all needs in a way that mainstream just can't. They also have the funding that we don't. I hope your child finds the place perfect for him.

Arg. I have written two long posts that have been crashed out.
I feel very sorry for you OP your stress and anger radiate out of your posts.
If you could set aside as much of that as possible and try and work with the school to find solutions it might be easier for all.

There’s a lot of misinformation being given here. To answer your original question, no, schools cannot just give out information about pupils, even if it is to other schools, although they often do without thinking about the legal position in doing so. Tell them you don’t want them to do so, in writing if necessary. This is not a safeguarding matter where schools are obliged to pass on information.

You can look at and request any mainstream or SEN school and the LA then has to consult with that school, which involves giving them the paperwork. They can agree to admit or say that they cannot meet his needs or that him coming to their school would be detrimental to the education of other pupils. They can also visit the pupil at his current school at this point to see him. If they say no, you can appeal at this point also. They cannot say no just because they have recruitment issues for the 1:1 for instance. There is always a presumption of access to a mainstream education, if this is the parents preference, that mainstream schools seem to be oblivious to. It is not their choice.

You don’t need a diagnosis of anything, SEN assessment is needs-led. However you cannot stop school or other agencies describing how your child behaves in their setting, when providing evidence for the EHCP. They can only describe the child they see, which might be completely different to the child you see at home. You can obviously correct information contained in the plan if there are factual inaccuracies though.

A school will not say they can't meet his needs lightly and if they are suggesting an SEN school then please consider what they are suggesting seriously.

My experience of working as a specialist SEN advisor for 14 years is that schools will often say they can’t meet needs, when what they really mean is ‘we have no clue what we could possibly do differently to help this child learn’ or ‘we don’t want to do anything differently to help this child learn.’ It’s very naive to think schools always do their best for every child, particularly if the child has significant behavioural challenges.

Paquita, I find that very sad. And not something I've ever come across thank goodness.

Tingface said private psych report - obviously and quite clearly meaning psychiatrist.

You're so angry and frustrated you're trying to pick at everything people are saying in order to validate and justify your own feelings. We all get it because we've all been there but are maybe further than the long road than you. People are trying to give you the benefit of their experience and awareness but you don't want to hear it so I'm not sure why you keep posting. I was exactly the same as you and posted similarly, then bit everyone's heads off when they replied. I look back and everything people said was true, I just didn't want to hear it.

Our school did not want my son. After day 1 they shoved him on a reduced timetable of 30 minutes, refused to let specialists in and excluded my son from lessons and school. So yes schools can decide they don’t want your child. And actively put barriers in place. I’ve found that if you have a school like this they will do everything they can not to work with you.

But I’d have thought gdpr would prevent the sharing of sensitive information. I’d put it in writing to the school not to do it again and I’d also not tell schools your visiting where your son goes to school.

They have said he will never go back to mainstream

Ah. It is possible that your school is 'that school'.

I was told that about DS by his first school in Y1.

I did have very great pleasure in sending them his excellent KS2 results from his second mainstream primary and telling them that he had been taken off the SEN list because he no longer displayed any of the symptoms that the first school had induced in him....

Any school that ASSUMES a special school place will be forthcoming is either a) misinformed or b) has in front of them, in that setting, a child with EXTREMELY severe needs. Locally, at least, the level of need to come under category b) is very, very, very high. Children with full EHCPs from early years, with 1;1 help full time throughout every day in an educational setting from that point, with learning 5,6,7 years behind chronological age, displaying extreme behaviours, wouldn't get into primary SS locally.

Can't - that isn't the case everywhere though. Might be an indication of county availability and budget?

My son had a normal reception / yr 1 with no support / Sen identified and then went on to be excluded, isolated, diagnosed to death etc over year 2 and will start specialist for yr 4. He's only had an EHCP since July and never had 1:1. He's gifted and has completed the primary curriculum already. He's not the only child similar in new specialist school.

1:1 is a real tricky thing though. Lots of children need a 1:1 but lots of children are given one in MS to safeguard the situation which could be remedied in other ways. My sons doesn't need 1:1 in any other setting and only in MS because the environment is so challenging. In SS he gets 8:2/3 ratio and can have autonomy and independence in school without having an adult constantly attached to him. It's not always an indication of severity.

I think they have contravened GDPR, yes, but I did several lots of GDPR training last year and concluded it seems unlikely we could continue with life as we know it while actually understanding/meeting all the provisions. So I don't think there's much mileage there.

I hope you can find the right school placement. It is horrible to feel rejected.

Formal Assessments for ASD are conducted by a psychologist not a Psychiatrist. A psychiatrist can have an opinion however is not in a position to dismiss potential ASD given the issues you have raised on here without asking a psychologist to conduct an ADOS. Your DC should have a formal assessment even if it is to rule it out. It would be wrong to not complete it as your DC could end up getting the wrong type of support and things can escalate. Being a private psychiatrist does not mean they are good!

Seems to me you have a lot on your plate, OP, but trying to control professionals discussing your case amongst themselves by crying data protection seems very OTT. I worked in this sector for years, with multiple agencies and all local schools. If we'd had to seek permission from parents for every phone call that explored future options for that child, nothing would ever have been done!

As an aside, LAs don't tend to regard private diagnoses with a lot of weight. However, the EHCP appeals process is very interesting - LAs will usually capitulate rather than going to court.

given the issues you have raised on here
That he has some social difficulties?
Which are common in ADHD?
Psychiatrists DO diagnose ASD, unless this one is telling us he can, when he can't?

LAs don't tend to regard private diagnoses with a lot of weight
Interesting how the NHS (you know, the actual doctors) take his diagnosis at face value and will be happily prescribing his meds.
But I shouldn't be surprised really as the Ed Psych has taken it upon herself to write a huge long paragraph about how his other meds (for epilepsy, happily well controlled) are causing his behaviour problems, which the prescribing doctor says is extremely rare, and clearly not the case for him.

@drspouse I've seen enough LA decisions over the years to know that the process often seems to defy logic and decisions can seem baffling. It's a long and arduous process and extremely frustrating for families. You have my complete sympathy but this is why I suggest you focus your energies on the big stuff, not small things like phone calls. Good luck, I hope you find ds the right place in the end.

Psychiatrists are involved in the ax process for asd but only if they are formally trained to compete the ADOS and does so in conjunction with other professionals who agree on the findings.

You aren't being very clear about how the psychiatrist has decided this. Has he and other suitably trained professionals done a formal assessment or has he just met your child and said he won't get a diagnosis without a formal assessment? If it's the latter I'd be looking for a new psychiatrist as this one is extremely unprofessional.

I have an SLT friend who is on the asd pathway panel and carries out ADOS all the time. She came round and chatted with ds and did a few informal assessments as there was a lot of confusion during our 2 yr wait. She couldn't say for sure and was on the fence. As it happens, during the assessment process which involves gathering all the professionals reports, the ADOS, visiting school and the developmental interview - his diagnosis was felt to be extremely clear cut. One I had no idea was coming become it didn't seem clear to me. Now I can see it all though.

I don't think anyone here is trying to tell you what is going on with the son merely that things aren't always as they seem. They are black or white.

Aren't black and white even!

Op, I understand your frustration, but I think you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture . At some point the two schools have to talk. Sooner rather than later is irrelevant. Because what your current school says will remain the same. And the proposed school will listen just the same.

You seem to be thinking if you got in there first, and they saw him, it would mitigate what the current school would say. This isn't the case at all.

My son has severe autism and.
severe learning difficulties but he's much more able at home than school .
The school environment really does exaggerate his difficulties so maybe school are seeing a totally different child than you are .
If special school
Is being mentioned than I would definitely go visit some because believe me places are not handed out if there not needed .
It's a scary thought to process but maybe you are in a bit of denial about your sons difficulties I know I was but once I worked in his best interest instead of mine he's made so much
More progress in a school that meets his own individual needs.

You seem to be so angry in general. Asd/Adhd, a lot things are common, ime.
I had no problem former school communicating with new school, because best interest is what and how they can help your child, and I never had problem professional people sharing the info about my dc, including teachers, who will be the ones helping dc in everyday school life.