Current school and new schools contacting each other

[drspouse]

I have posted in SEN about this but this is a bit more of a general issue.

Our DS is in Y2 and his current school are saying they can't meet his needs. We're just waiting for the outcome of the EHCP panel but we are sure they are going to approve 1:1 (he currently has this) and then it's a case of what else we think he needs that we may need to appeal for.

Current school are pushing us to look at special schools so they can get rid. We think he could manage a smaller mainstream school (currently things like playground noise, noisy classrooms next to each other etc. are a struggle for him).

We rang one smaller mainstream school that was recommended to us by a carer who knows the local schools. Instead of ringing us back, the other school rang his current school (and didn't ring us back).

We are not sure if we can do anything about this. We wanted to contact smaller mainstream schools once we have his EHCP confirmed. But what can we do to prevent his current school from talking to them (and them from talking to his current school)?

Do we HAVE to tell other schools where he is currently? Are they allowed to talk to other schools about him?

So he does have a diagnosis of ADHD?

Yes he does.

As others have said the school don't need to comment on what causes the behaviour/issues they observe and feel they cannot manage, but the school should report the difficulties as they see them.

I’ve been a SENCO, it’s pretty standard to contact the current school because you want to understand how they are in school and what support the child would need. It’s not intended to be avoiding the parents but I can see how in your scenario you might worry about them ‘prejudging’ the situation.
I also have taught in special needs schools. Honesty, hand on heart, if my child was even remotely borderline I’d choose an SEN school because SEN provision in mainstream is so incredibly underfunded. Your child is far far more likely to get specialist support.
Leaving that aside, you could kick up a fuss with the current school about them sharing information without consent. But it might be counterproductive, school 2 will still ring school 1. School 1 will say sorry as per parents wishes we can’t discuss this with you and then school 2 will imagine the absolute worst case scenario that you are suing the school or some other issue. Your best bet is to talk with school 2 and ask them to have your son for a trial few days with no commitment. Then both you and the school can decide if it genuinely will be the best place.

But whether they rang you back or not is immaterial. If the school has a vacancy, your son can go. If he has an EHCP and the school is named, he can go. If he is a LAC ( sorry, I think I read this on your other thread, apologies if I'm wrong) he can go. The school can't stop him from going, whether they talk to the current school or not.
Phone the school back, say you want to arrange a visit. If they refuse ( and it is conceivable but not usual to do so), decide whether you still want your son to go. If you do, name it in the EHCP.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying, MrsRabbit, that school have correctly diagnosed ASD based on no experience in differential diagnosis, as have you, based on vague information over the internet, but the psychiatrist was wrong?

I am not saying that, no. I was saying, based only on what you had posted, that in my experience, CAMHS should not be solely trusted either, just as you do not trust the school. You have now said that the psychiatrist is private and I therefore have no experience with that. I was merely trying give you a heads up that sometimes, CAMHS is not on your side (or your sons’) and to seek further advice if you can. Your son is too precious.

I'm not sure they should have shared information without consent.
Generally though, it's the done thing and parents are usually happy with this as it is part of the moving process. Almost always when a child applies to another school, the school will contact us and ask for behaviour/attendance/progress info. That secondary so maybe primaries tend to phone and share info verbally, or maybe they do it the same way? Even in secondary if it was a complex case there would be a conversation.

It's not in his school's best interest to share really negative information unnecessarily - if they're struggling to meet his needs or manage his behaviour, then why would they jeopardise his move to another school unless in their professional opinion it was really not appropriate.

I am aware that the schools need to talk.
I just think they should ask us first. And suggest we visit the school.
Schools don't do this if your child moves up from nursery or if you move areas. As far as we know the special schools we're looking at HAVEN'T rung the current school.
Why would they even think it's in the slightest bit reasonable to release any information about my child, even their name, without my permission?

If the school has a vacancy, your son can go.
Not necessarily. With an EHCP they can state they are not able to meet his needs. Without an EHCP they can state they cannot manage the behaviour and can refer to be fair access panel.

Schools don't do this if your child moves up from nursery or if you move areas.

Yes they do.

I wonder if anyone has a more expert opinion on whether consent was needed (legally)?

Schools don't do this if your child moves up from nursery or if you move areas.
They do. They also do it when they move from primary to secondary. When I took my year 7 group I got a full run down on any child with behaviour/attendance/safeguarding concerns.

I have to say I'm shocked that this appears to be normal.
When we've had things like nursery info going to school or 2 year check shared between health and nursery we've always had to give permission.
As the parent of an adopted child, I am acutely aware of data protection issues and the relevant safety concerns. This flies in the face of all data protection regulations.

Just having a google on the topic. Says consent should be sought but this is usually something that is agree when data is first given - did you sign anything when he joined the school?

ASauvignon
I thought that might be the case.
If we can see/chat to schools, we can see if we think they are right, current school can give their opinion, new school can look at the EHCP, everyone's happy.
If school tell the other schools not to talk to us, that's them deciding for us which school he should go to. Forgive me if I want some input.

I doubt it as they HAVE asked us on other occasions.

You should definitely have some input, I agree! I honestly don't see why they'd try and put the other school off though if they want to "get rid".
And I really hope they don't want to get rid. But I know (first hand) how hard it is to support students with complex needs with dwindling budgets and a far from perfect system. Maybe they genuinely feel he is best in a more appropriate school.

If school tell the other schools not to talk to us, that's them deciding for us which school he should go to.

Do you actually know that though? As others have said, your school is highly unlikely to want to put another school off. I can’t think of a reason why they would, if they say they cannot meet his needs.

I don't think the other schools will have been told not to speak to you. If your school says the words 'ehcp, 1:1 and refusal' its very likely the other schools will decide to avoid an expensive problem (in their mind)

They all say they are inclusive and they are once a child is on roll in varying degrees. But there are a lot of schools that will be unwelcoming and try and make you consider somewhere else. They will avoid calls, be negative when showing you round and pray you go elsewhere. Because funding is terrible and budgets are in crisis.

I know in our area some local heads have complained about other heads doing this to the LA and how its not in the spirit of fair access. Its a genuine problem.

Whether your school should have told the school that I don't know. it seems a breach of confidentiality to me at the stage you are at. If you have any relationship left you could ask them ask them to broker a visit for you to form your own opinion. Just say you really need to see it for your own peace of mind - lead them to think its part of coming to terms with a special school.

If your school doesn't feel it can meet his needs I'm sure they wont be trying to prevent you from leaving.
By the way in our area the magic number for being financially viable and not having to move to mixed year groups is 180 on role. Were rural and a poorly funded county. It might be better where you are.

Just a clarification on numbers in the school you are looking for:

20 in total in R/Y1/Y2?

Or 20 in each of those years?

If the first, the school will be in a very precarious financial state.

If the second, the financial pressure will be to move to 2x classes of 30, mixed year group classes.

Also, as small schools in an area with mainly large schools are often sought out by parents of children with SEN, there may well be a far higher than normal number of SEN children within the school. I have taight in a very small school where children without SEN were the minority for exactly this reason, and where there were more statements - now EHCPs- in 1 class than you might normally have within a key stage. A school in that position may simply not have the capacity to admit your DS due to the needs of existing pupils, and this is something that you should be prepared for.

The information sought by the school may have been as minimal as 'Is this child on your SEN register?' - and this may be enough to tell them that they will not be able to admit them. As others have said, if your current school 'wants to get rid of him', then they will minimise, not maximise, his needs in describing them to another school. Brutally speaking, primary Special School places are so rare and so in demand that if they are relying on a SS place for him to go to and thus 'putting off' other mainstream schools, they are much more likely to have to keep him right through to secondary.

The only way you will find out what is happening is to ring the small school again.

The school we rung is a fairly regular 30/year school. It just came recommended for SEN.
Others are 20 total in R/1/2.
We do live in a fairly scattered area (partly why there is so little choice for SEN).

Have you looked at the DfE Performance tabls Pupil Population information for that school? What are their % with an EHCP and % SEN support compared with national? (A school with such a reputation locally, for example, has figures over twice the national average, bringing the total % of children on the SEN register to 1/3 of the school)

From the school's point of view, being known as a 'go to' school for SEN can be something of a poisoned chalice funding-wise and in terms of managing all the different needs. Being unable to effectively cater for a new pupuil with an EHCP in addition to all those already in the school would be a reason for refusal even if the school has a good reputation for working with those children with SEN that it already has.

Oh that's good to know. I'll do some research. Some of this is "I know there are 2 because my child is there" and some is other professionals knowing there are quite a few.

I think, by the way, you may be being a little harsh on your DS's current school - of course, you may not (not all schools manage children with SEN well).

If they describe the behaviour they see in school accurately, they are not lying simply because you see something different at home. f they project your DS's future performance in school based on his current performance in school - especially if he has 1:1 support - then that is not unreasonable, even if his performance at home is different. i mean, my DS was a selective mute - in school, he was silent. At home, he was, for much of the progress of the mutism, pretty forthcoming. i don't regard the school's prediction of his in-school performance based on his mutism as 'wrong', because they were working on in-school information.

Stating categorically that he 'has ASD' is, of course, wrong. Suggesting that he has many of the traits associated with ASD is less clear-cut - at the time, I described DS as having 'autistic traits' as a short-cut to communicate the particular 'package' of difficulties that he had, though in the event the root cause as anxiety rather than actually being non-NT (though this took the next 5-6 years to establish for definite). Similarly, the school may be using the term loosely as a descriptor for a 'suite of behaviours / difficulties' that may have a different root cause but be commonly found in those with a diagnosis of ASD. To ask them not to use that descriptor is fine - you can ask them to enumerate the precise difficulties they observe (e.g,. sensory overload, repetitive behaviours, stimming, rigid thinking) but they are not 'lying'.