Organising a gifted and talented group

[diazeki17]

Hello everyone,
I am interested in starting a gifted and talented group for children aged 5-7 in central London. I have two children who are in Mensa but unfortunately, mensa events and communities are for their adult members. Obviously, I do not mind if your kids are in Mensa or not, but if you feel that your kids are working above their age group and are gifted, please drop me a message. The hope is that it would be a relaxed group where we could organise trips and fun enriching activities that will continue to nurture their love of learning.

Perhaps there simply isn't a right answer for children who are outliers

Unfortunately I think the answer at the present time is home schooling, with organised opportunities for socialising with other intelligent children.

So your dcs can't socialise with their intellectually 'normal' peers which is something you want to address? Surely the best way to do that is providing more opportunities to mix with intellectually average peers, not pick a new peer group of kids equally unable to socialise with peers?

It's like having an obese kid who's self conscious about being larger than their peers, but rather than address the weight, you make them mix with fat kids.

diazeki,

I thought they probably didn't do groups any more. The late 1970s were a very 'unpushy' educational era, so such groups could probably thrive with a self-identifying bunch of the somewhat odd and asynchronous. Now, I could see that there would be a 'push to get your child into a NAGC group' effect ('Look, my child is so clever, they go to Explorers'), which would limit their effectiveness for those who really need them.

@Chrys2017, although I graduated from Warwick Law school after being home, schooled (also got GCSE's at age 13) my parents where too poor to afford extracurricular groups and hence I did not get to socialise. I did get a 100% scholarship to a private all-girls boarding school, but my parents were very protective and declined the offer. My DH whose a medical doctor also prioritises as much as he prioritises nurturing their abilities, their social development. For this reason, we are not keen on homeschooling, unfortunately.

Crumble - do they state that the OP's children will be normal at 15? (The only reference to Triple 9 I can find is for a bad film - but i'm sure that's not what you mean?)

@diazeki17 I think you'll find most people who claim their children are profoundly gifted are just kids who are pushed incredibly hard and get good grades at school. I'm not saying your two are like that since they do sound very gifted but as someone who was considered a gifted child a lot of all the other 'gifted' people I came across were just those who refused excessively and were overly bothered about their grades to the point they cried if it wasn't perfect because they were worried what their parents would think. Intelligence and good grades are very different things.

@diazeki17
This organisation might be helpful, if you haven't encountered it already.
www.pegy.org.uk/home%20education.html

Two particularly interesting quotes from their research:

• "Children who learn at home appear to develop very different skills from those learning in school. Such children integrate easily into a variety of social settings and are accustomed to taking responsibility within their families and to motivating themselves in their day to day activities."

• "Results from the psychosocial instruments confirm that home-educated children were socially adept and without behavioural problems. This is a concern most often levelled at those who home educate - but one apparently without foundation in reality for the age-group studied. "

What I do have, is my history as a tutor with exclusive children.
The majority Will average out.

The fact that most of the "exclusive" children you taught were brought down to average isn't something to be very proud of, IMO.

I think you need to be clearer in what you see as the point of this group. Is it for G&T (however defined) kids to mix with others of their own age? Is it to do fun stuff related to their particular strengths (coding, chess, maths, reading?) with peers of a similar age? What does success look like for you / your DC?

@Brokenbiscuit you have hit the nail on the head. My comments about fitting in are not to change my daughter to be something she is not, but to help her find her place within her existing peer group.

FWIW, I think you're absolutely right Zodle. I was an academic outlier as a child, but I was also very shy. I spent a lot of time reading, and was encouraged to pursue academic interests. Socially, I spent most of my time with one other child - also very academic. My parents weren't at all pushy, but encouraged us to learn and follow our natural interests. Unfortunately, due to my natural shyness and my dependence on this one very academic friend, I didn't get much practice at how to relate to other kids my age. I didn't develop those skills, and when my friend and I went to separate secondary schools, I found that I simply didn't know how to build relationships with others. I did learn eventually, but I still am left with the hangovers from that time and I am very socially anxious as a result. I really wish my parents had invested a little more effort in getting me to mix with a range of "ordinary" kids. I didn't need help with learning or developing my thinking skills - I was brilliant at those things already. What I really needed help with was learning how to chat to other kids my age, how to relate to people of all different abilities and how to build friendships with the people around me.

My dd is very different to me. She instinctively knows how to talk to anyone. She does have quite a few older friends, but she also has a few younger ones as well as lots among her own age group. And she sees some adults as her friends too! Her closest friends at school do tend to be very able academically, but she is also very friendly with some others who are not at all academic - they may not be "clever" but she is thankfully able to appreciate their other good qualities.

OP, the children at the group I went to weren't rude as such. Just lacking in self-awareness and basic turn-taking in conversations etc. The parents seemed to have placed a disproportionate emphasis on academic intelligence, over and above other aspects of their development. I suspect that the assumption that any social difficulties were linked to the giftedness often got in the way of the parents actually doing anything to address those difficulties - social ineptitude was dismissed as an inevitable consequence of giftedness rather than as a problem that needed to be addressed. I felt sorry for the kids.

OP, there are indeed a lot of gifted groups in the UK and in other countries, but I suspect that most are similar to the one I attended. The thing about truly gifted children is that they are already different from their peers. These gifted groups just underline and emphasise those differences, and I'm not at all sure that's helpful. I believe that sensible parents don't dwell on those differences (and therefore on the giftedness) but rather encourage their children to see the many, many things that they share in common with other kids, regardless of academic ability. If we teach them how to relate confidently and effectively to people of all abilities, that's likely to have a profound impact on their long-term success and happiness. Their intelligence will not disappear just because we fail to focus on it.

I agree with those who advise against special gifted groups and recommend other activities that enable their children to mix with a wide range of other kids.

@OlennasWimple - I am very new to all of this, I did not plan for anything, I just wanted them to have peers in their aptitude range who would hopefully be similar in some ways. They could go for outings or do activities they are interested in and get on with the business of being kids.

I wouldn't be that proud of Warwick Law School, if that was intention of posting....

@Chrys2017 Thank you I already have this website.

Good luck with the group! Don't let the nay-sayers discourage you.

Good luck with the group! Don't let the nay-sayers discourage you

Because the views of people like me that 1) were identified as off the scale when young 2) against all the odds stayed that way (I utterly agree with @CrumbleBrag!) and not only that 3) have much older children of their own now that also presented that way when little is of no relevance whatsoever because i'm a "naysayer".

🙈

When talking to the parents, it was clear that they put their children's poor social skills down to their "giftedness". In some cases, I suspect that ASD was also part of the mix, although this wasn't explicitly stated in my hearing.

This is common IME. You see a lot of parents who will talk in parents' groups and online fora about their child's giftedness, but in many cases if you scratch beneath the surface it rapidly becomes apparent that it is the parent's way of psychologically dealing with the fact that their child has some significant behavioral/cognitive challenges and the parent does not want the label and doesn't want to face reality.

I've seen this especially among certain homeschoolers (and "unschoolers"....yikes!) where children had been withdrawn from the school system "because he/she is G&T and needs a special curriculum" but it actually had a lot to to with the fact that subconsciously, the parent kinda knew that their child was likely to fall behind the regular curriculum and was trying to protect themselves and their child from having to watch that happen.

Don't misunderstand me, there is nothing wrong with HSing special needs children, just saying that parents should be honest about their motivation for doing it because this will make it easier to get their children the help and therapy that they may need.

And getting back to the idea of a G&T parent/child group, it is a very very GOOD thing for parents of children with special needs to get together and have groups where they support each other and share ideas about supporting their children, but if the OP is trying to start a group for G&T then she may be disappointed if the focus of the group ends up being more about providing help and advice for higher-functioning special needs, because that's just a different kind of group.

(Needless to say, of course you get genuinely G&T children who absolutely do not have special needs--I'm just saying that the G&T label gets taken up by a lot of people for other reasons. Pushy parents too, as mentioned above. If the OP doesn't think that tiresome hot-housers exist, she might want to check out the London 3+ threads on here!).

I maintain that the OP would be better off starting with just a few likeminded people and gradually expanding from there via personal recommendations and word of mouth if she wants to keep the focus of the group clear.

but when I organise playdates with kids their age, they tell me it was a painful experience and express their boredom

I think this is quite worrying. And it has nothing to do with intelligence.

I was an Oxbridge girl and love reading and serious books. I also love silly boardgames and doing "What's the time, Mr. Wolf?" with the kids and decorating cupcakes with tacky decorations and titting around with the playground equipment in the playground if it's not busy (and I'm 40 years old!).

Most people at my university (who were all very strong or exceptional in their fields) enjoyed all sorts of daft games and clubs and pastimes, in addition to devouring serious stuff in the library (we even had a Tiddlywinks Society at uni. I think that says it all).

I would be concerned about a child who didn't have the ability to enjoy low-key fun or have a laugh with their peers.

but when I organise playdates with kids their age, they tell me it was a painful experience and express their boredom

I agree, this is rather a concern. It really isn't as simple as them being too intelligent to enjoy playtime with other kids of their age. I'm not at all convinced by the communication gap theory, I'm afraid. Perhaps they just need to learn to relate more effectively to different types of people and to explore different ways of having fun?

I get that you're trying to do the best for them, OP. I really think that helping them to interactive more effectively and enjoyably with peers of all abilities is the very best thing you can do for them. They need to practise this stuff!

One thing which has really, really helped my daughter has been an activity club involving a (physical) skill in which she is not gifted at all. She has had the experience of being average, or at times, even a bit below average. This doesn't damage her confidence at all as she knows that she is ahead in other areas - in fact, I think it boosts her confidence as she is more aware and accepting of her own strengths and weaknesses. She has had the valuable experience of struggling and failing, and she does not fear this now - unlike many gifted kids who tend to sail through school without encountering many hurdles. She has learnt humility and to appreciate that the skills and abilities of others are not lacking, but just different from her own.

Interact not interactive. Bloody auto correct.

I wouldn't be that proud of Warwick Law School How snobbish.

As an aside, I am appalled at the way some posters talk about children with ASD. As a parent of dc with high functioning Aspergers who are super smart and have a harder time being socially smooth than some of their peers I guarantee you that this situation can be utterly heart breaking, stressful and sometimes desperately sad. I suppose we are 'lucky' that the dc are academically high achieving because they get to experience being good at some things. However, the intolerant and judgmental reactions from so many grown ups, parents of dc's peers, teachers and others is heartbreaking and quite awful.

So please think again before saying that some highly intelligent dc are 'just' ASD. It's really hurtful for me as parent of dc with ASD. Thanks for considering this. Also next time you encounter dc with poorer social skills, try and empathise, they are children and need to be given a chance.

But I suppose this is difficult to imagine if your dc has no such social issues.

I used to run a NAGC group and it was very hard work. It can be done. My son met another lad who shared his quirky sense of humour, sharp mind and general geekiness and that was a blessing when they were 9ish and not interested in football which was the main thing at school. We joined up with national events where the children got to talk to the code breakers at Bletchley Park or to PhD physicists. That was a god one. Two of mine are in the gifted range and a super selective grammar school was perfect for them when they got to be teenagers and being super bright was normal.

It is the primary year's that are more challenging. We used to go to lots of museum type places where the children could talk to enthusiasts who would forget that it was a 7 year old asking about Roman battle tactics or how this type of steam engine worked. Then the children could run around and be children because emotionally they were just that. Then they could learn a few manners in the tea shop when mummy and daddy were gasping for a cuppa. Learning how to be bored and chill is a great skill that has got me through many long hours in trustee meetings and I thank my own parents for that.

2Tails, I mentioned ASD in one of my posts. I certainly hope that you didn't feel upset by what I said. I most definitely don't judge children with ASD or their parents, and I have always encouraged dd to be kind and understanding towards all.

My comment was merely intended to differentiate between those children for whom ASD might be a factor from those children who simply had poorly developed social skills, as my comments did not apply to the former. I would not for a moment presume that the parents of children with ASD just need to work harder at developing their social skills, as I am aware of the complexity of ASD and I would guess that most parents of children on the spectrum are already heavily invested in their child's social and emotional development. However, I do feel that the parents of some academically gifted but socially inept NT children could focus on this area rather more, and perhaps a little less on their child's academic superiority.