School won't keep our place - what to do?

[VitAL]

Hi all,
I'm really stuck with a difficult dilemma and would appreciate any thoughts. DC is currently at a very academic pre-prep, we chose it precisely for their leavers' destinations, they send a lot of children to three top selective indies high on our list and some pupils to a couple more selective schools. DC is happy there, but I want to give 4+ a go. I feel I would really regret if I don't, would be thinking all the time about opportunities lost and it's a bit easier to get in at 4+ than 7+. I wouldn't say DC is exceptionally academic at 3.5 but strong-willed (sometimes to the extent of being bossy with even older children), emotionally mature and disciplined/co-operative so I think could do quite well at 4+.

The problem is our school won't keep our place for Reception if they find out we're sitting 4+ and I think they easily can as it has very good links with most of the schools on our list. I have actually sent applications to two schools before I knew about our school's policy (it's not an official policy AFAIK but people talk). I've no idea if they actually ask for references and reports at 4+. I'm still thinking about applying to at least three more schools. I guess (I'm not 100% sure) I could leave the current school's details blank on application forms but I feel bad about it TBH.

If we get kicked out of the current school we might end up with no place at all. We might possibly get a last minute place at a non-selective non-academic indie, but that would mean extra money on tuition for 7+ with less chances and much more uncertainty as we plan to buy a house close to the school if DC gets in at 4+, if not that would be another 3-4 years in limbo.

I'm at a loss what to do and so stressed about the whole situation that I lost sleep. Should I abandon the whole idea and wait until 7+?Please help, I really need to make up my mind.

"And we are not prone to self-harm by going against it"

You think your son will be harmed by mixing with dc's who are not hothoused? Or from mixing with poor children?

For the love of god please dissuade him from any career which involves him having influence over the lives of the rest of us.

Lots of poor children at grammars. Didn't see any harm from them.

Would you like some ketchup on your chips?

Lots of poor children at grammars?

Not really. At least not according to the Sutton Trust.

But maybe in your world a school with four children on FSM counts as 'socially mixed'. It's not of course because at grammars even the kids on FSM have highly supportive, often graduate parents.

Re: my chips, I went to a private school. DH went to a shitty comprehensive, but he's done better in his career than I have. My dad was a diplomat. He did well in life too, despite non-selective state schooling to 14 and nothing beyond that.

Talent will out when it's really there. Really bright, hardworking kids can still achieve without hothousing.

But maybe your son needs all the help he can get if he's not got the smarts to compete on the same terms as the vast majority of other non-hothoused dc's?

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and local knowledge. I think I've made up my mind now. Not sure I will be able to follow the discussion on moral philosophy of education, interesting though it is :)

Just wishing you luck. I watch the North London schools panic with interest (we are in a nearby state but with lots of friends in private). If you can avoid the 11 plus, then I would! It genuinely takes over the lives of entire families.

@minifingerz I don't read reports or at least I prefer to live real life and I certainly speak from experience. There were no poor children at our comp because even low middle class can't afford houses in the catchment and there is no social housing around either. And there were lots of relatively poor children at grammar because it's a meritocratic entry based on IQ, not even the attainment at previous school. So please don't tell me about real talent and hard work, we have seen it all in real life, with DC1 being in top 2% of national IQ range and not at all exceptional at his grammar with no diplomats' children around.

Thank you Sittinginthesun :) We will need some luck indeed.

I don't understand the obsession with universities. UK universities are relatively easy to get into. Try US writing three creative essays, each standing out of the crowd, for each of your five choices and you'll get the perspective.
School education is not about gaining a university entry, or RG university entry, or Oxbridge entry. This objective is too easy and not worth stressing about.

So what is your objective - if a place at a good university is so easy?

I have a few friends who went to church every Sunday for five years despite being atheists to get their kid into the Catholic school which was the only good one around. stopped the day the youngest child got their reception offer.

how is sending children to a pre-prep less odd than that?

Some of the regular posters on London independent schools have quite extensive knowledge and experience.

When embarking for the first time, it is all too easy to get swept up in the belief that the choices made for 3 year old are in any way going to make or break their whole educational journey. That's one of the reasons that I recommend looking for preps with a range of leavers' destinations (so you know - as far as anyone can know - that your DC will be well prepared whatever their strengths and weaknesses turn out to be) and for both 11+ and 13+ so you have more choice later.

BTW every single prep says they work a year (at least) ahead of state schools. Only occasionally is that true, so on the whole it's something better ignored.

And Alleyns is notoriously difficult to get in to, partly because it doesn't just take the highest scores on exam but pays attention to interview and references, then seeks to have a balanced intake of the pupils the teachers actually want in their classrooms. So every year you get boys who have Westminster offers or girls with SPGS who get only wait list or no offer at all from a Alleyns. If you want a 'softer' option, cast your net wider.

I don't listen to what they say (in fact, they don't say that much as apparently they don't have to sales pitch hard, the results speak for themselves). I watch what they do and compare to what I've seen at three outstanding state schools. As I said, DC1 went through the state system in middle class areas so all schools were very good. I have my own reference base.
Interesting points on Alleyn's, thank you.

I'm chasing particular schools. And not only because of their results, the results are not even in the first place.
What is good education? Depends on your definition of the term, isn't it?

I just have a funny feeling that university entry will be worth stressing about when you get to that stage OP.

For those that are saying "Move out of London and send to a decent state primary" and "So glad I don't live in London". Not all of us in London (even North London!) are keen on academically hot housing our children or are obsessed with some mystery race/game which has nothing to do with those English Universities with their laughable entrance standards. In fact, I don't know anyone like this. Anywhere. State primaries in London are generally very good and my current aims for my North London three year old are for him to have fun, learn kindness and to experience the real diversity this City has to offer. I am losing absolutely zero sleep over my relatively modest ambition of getting him in to the excellent rated local primary which shares facilities with an SEN school.

Didn't want to derail the OP's thread, her choices are her own no matter how extraordinary they seem, but I bristled a bit at the suggestion North London is exclusively an eye-watering toddler academic rat race!

I totally get why you would want to avoid the 7+ and are considering changing schools. However, I do think changing schools at 11 or 13 is actually very good for children. They have the opportunity to be at the top of the school, take on responsibilities in roles like prefects and sports captains, take prospective parents on tours on open days etc. I have friends at a very highly respected day school which goes from 3-18 and due to financial reasons their daughter is moving to a grammar at 11. They were given no help in preparing for exams etc as the expectation was she would just carry on through until 18. As it is they feel that the grammar is actually going to be a much better place for her - it's just a better "fit".

I guess what I am saying is that you might close off more options by going to an all through school than a prep, in that it turns out the environment isn't right and you end up having to tutor at 11 anyway to move them.

I was just like you when my eldest was three. Whilst not in London we are in the Habs / NLCS / St Albans Girls High area. I looked at them all, names were down for assessments and then I stopped and thought about it. I didn't actually like any of the schools that much. I couldn't actually see my daughter thriving there. That's not to say she would be unhappy, but so many of the things she loved seemed to be add-ons as opposed to the core way the curriculum was delivered.

So I went a bit off piste and looked at the non selective schools in the area and was blown away by one in particular. Friends couldn't understand why I didn't send her to one of the other aforementioned schools. She is thriving. They set from reception, well, they are broken into six much smaller groups and then formal setting starts in Y1. She is beyond happy (she hates school holidays), and looks like she's on track to get into one of those academic schools at 11 if we want - but that's a whole other story.

We all want the best for our children and we know them best but it irks me sometimes when people put down schools like ours because they are not academic enough. A good school meets the needs of all their pupils. Our school consistently sends children to those top academic schools, state grammars and boarding school with no problem. There are a number of children who do move into the normal state sector and non / less selective independents though so they don't have endless lists of top schools as leavers destinations but these are schools that best fit the need of that particular child. Look at the detail behind how abilities are grouped or set - you might find a school that you hadn't considered before.

I think schools are just like buying houses - you instantly know whether it's the right one. It sounds like you're having a wobble on your current school. Would you be looking at 4+ if you were over the moon happy with it? I guess not. Rest assured that when you find the right school you will know it. Be brave, think outside the box and remember that your child will do well when they are happy. Best of luck!!

George, I'm afraid your feeling betrays you. I was there, that's exactly why I know for sure it's not difficult (and is more difficult in the US)

Zodlebud, thank you for your comment. That is definitely something to have a thorough thought about (and I did, and I will again, I know I should). Not being able to predict how the child will actually develop and what school would fit at 7 or 11 or later is the weakest point in all these considerations.

I don't like all superselectives just because they all have such brilliant results etc. It would be silly :) Actually, I quite dislike one of them though it is always on top of all rankings :) It's gut feeling.

I'm not over the moon with the current school, but I'm happy with it, they do what I think is needed. It's just I always planned to try 4+. But I will definitely think about other routes you described and visit some more schools.
Thank you!

Have you seen Dead Poets Society maybe your son won't want to go to a US university. He may decide to become an actor or a musician not all children are academic robots.

For £18k a year I'd homeschool in a different country every month.

I didnt even know there were 4+/7+ exams. Poor bairns.
misses the point of the thread entirely