School won't keep our place - what to do?

[VitAL]

Hi all,
I'm really stuck with a difficult dilemma and would appreciate any thoughts. DC is currently at a very academic pre-prep, we chose it precisely for their leavers' destinations, they send a lot of children to three top selective indies high on our list and some pupils to a couple more selective schools. DC is happy there, but I want to give 4+ a go. I feel I would really regret if I don't, would be thinking all the time about opportunities lost and it's a bit easier to get in at 4+ than 7+. I wouldn't say DC is exceptionally academic at 3.5 but strong-willed (sometimes to the extent of being bossy with even older children), emotionally mature and disciplined/co-operative so I think could do quite well at 4+.

The problem is our school won't keep our place for Reception if they find out we're sitting 4+ and I think they easily can as it has very good links with most of the schools on our list. I have actually sent applications to two schools before I knew about our school's policy (it's not an official policy AFAIK but people talk). I've no idea if they actually ask for references and reports at 4+. I'm still thinking about applying to at least three more schools. I guess (I'm not 100% sure) I could leave the current school's details blank on application forms but I feel bad about it TBH.

If we get kicked out of the current school we might end up with no place at all. We might possibly get a last minute place at a non-selective non-academic indie, but that would mean extra money on tuition for 7+ with less chances and much more uncertainty as we plan to buy a house close to the school if DC gets in at 4+, if not that would be another 3-4 years in limbo.

I'm at a loss what to do and so stressed about the whole situation that I lost sleep. Should I abandon the whole idea and wait until 7+?Please help, I really need to make up my mind.

Theres lots of perfectly good state school in London. I'm sure with a supporting family she'd be fine in one. Surely that would save a lot faff, no?

(feel like I walked into an alternative universe!)

God can you imagine dinner around at each others houses in that world?!

Follow Highgatemums on twitter for a hint property

Mind-boggling

I'm not sure why this thread has turned a bit aggressive as surely the OP is entitled to ask advice from people in a similar situation who have knowledge of her area and aspirations. It seems as if the OP isn't really changing school anyway, as her Child is at a nursery rather than compulsory school age.

Even very academic schools will have a lot of play for EYFS children, so I'm sure wherever her child goes she will be exposed to play dough and mud!

I say you have nothing to lose by looking around other schools and trying their informal entrance (the 4+ name is a bit off putting!)

Has your child (really sorry can't remember is if DD or DS) made good friendships though as that, in my experience, is really important in making school enjoyable. If they had good friends staying at current schoo then I would be tempted to leave them.

A headmaster of a school near me says that if a child is right for a school then the school will be right for them. Sounds a bit trite but basically if your child is bright enough I think they will be OK at 7+

I got a bit lost following your thread, but are you hoping for your children to go to Harvard? If they are academics and you are wealthy there are lots of options to explore different unis eg undergrad at Oxbridge, masters as LSE/ Imperial and a PhD at Harvard etc.

Good luck. I think we all wish we had the power of hindsight with things like this.

@NeverShine4me
Oh no, I'm not thinking about Harvard for 3yo :) it's just on DH's side the family is rather international and we have nieces and nephews going to unis in France, Switzerland, Germany and US and I compared UK and US simply illustrating my point that we're not stressed about universities. It's much wider choice at that level whereas school is more local idea for us, we don't consider boarding. Local means less choices hence more stress.

DC strikes up friendship easily, has lots of friends now but they will all leave at 7+ anyway and not necessarily to the same schools. We keep friendship with our friends from SW though contacts are less frequent I admit. But I think good friendship will last whatever the distance.

@Pallisers - thank you. Thankfully my dcs are beyond that stage now, but I work with several colleagues who are either products of the US system or who have children who are intending to go to US universities and I wondered how it would work for them.
Out of interest OP, my own dcs went to our local state schools, including the local comprehensive. They each achieved excellent exam results, one chose to go to university where they achieved an excellent Masters degree in a science subject (which they now teach) and the other went straight to work for a large multinational after a levels and has worked their way steadily up the career ladder and is now at manager level alongside graduates of the same age. There is no glass ceiling at his company, so his experience will work for him just as effectively as a degree would have. You don't have to hothouse a baby in order for them to achieve.

@Whileweareonthesubject DC1 went through comp and grammar and is doing fine. I never said it's impossible. And I have to repeat that school is not about career achievements in my parallel universe :)

I take the OP's point about school not being just a conduit to university though. When we were applying for DD1 to a particular high school the admissions director said to us "your dd has had a good elementary school experience and a good middle school experience. Our job is to give her a good high school experience in these 4 years - including opportunities to go to the college she wants but not forgetting about the 4 years she is living right now".

I thought it was good advice and since then have tried to focus on the school/place my child is in rather than where it will lead them in the future (while also recognising this is an utter first world/wealthy issue and most people have no choice at all - you rock up to the local school and do just fine).

OP I do think you are overly concerned about your DH's family and where they are educated etc. Who cares? Your only concern should be your own children and their educations' fit with your family's life and their personalities and potential. The reality is beyond a few "brand" names in education - Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford, MIT - most people, even highly educated people, don't really recognise schools or colleges or universtities. I am in New England and there are schools here that people are pushing their kids to get into with illustrious histories etc ... that no one in UK or indeed anywhere outside of New England has heard of. Ditto universities. I once offended a friend who did her undergraduate in Brown and her med school in University of Chicago by repeating something I heard on the radio about University of Chicago being a good second choice in some circumstances. I had no idea how high it ranked. How would I?

It is really good to decide what works for your own family without reference to the larger family circle. If they live in different countries (as ours do) then they really can't know what is influencing your decisions.

extremely ambitious fathers who start their sons in tough academic or military-style environment then changed it later to more relaxed schools when children proved to be unable to cope But by getting to the point where the children proved they weren't coping, the damage is already done.

Kids of 7 having nervous breakdowns? Seriously, he will now have life long issues/hang ups because of this, and I bet no one cares that much really...because, well...his parents can afford his therapy for the next 20 odd years, hey!!

Every school has its own criteria, but they usually look for a certain level of social and emotional maturity that simply makes it's easier to teach them. Oh I see, easier to teach, in other words, they look for those who will make their results consistent, and look good. Got it.

So children of 4 can be kicked out of "school" for not being "emotional mature" enough to teach! Do you need to be emotional mature at 4?

The OP is getting quite a hard time on here. The school that people choose for their children usually reflects the sort of family that they are. The OP wants an academic school that her child can go through to 18, therefore avoiding the 11+ / CE.

Suggesting that she moves out of London is actually rather unkind. Those who suggest it choose not to live in London for their own reasons. Presumably the OP has a group of friends and a job in London and doesn't want to uproot her family or commute.

zzzzz I'm guessing some of the more forward thinging gangs have started taking 4 year olds in. And the money tides them over for when the police are getting hard on the drug dealing.

Of course London gangs offer nothing that LA ones do, but then so much education is better overseas obviously.

Whatever and wherever you choose I hope your child will be happy. Not a word that seems to carry much weight OP from what I've read.

How has everyone resisted the urge to offer OP an intercontinental to share with her DC during prep for toddler PowerPoint?

OP I do think you are overly concerned about your DH's family and where they are educated etc. Who cares?
Well I do :) We are very close. And DH is obviously part of his family and their educational tradition so I care about him too :) And don't you think it would be terribly wrong if we didn't try to give our children at least the same level of education as we have been given? It doesn't feel quite right to me.

Your only concern should be your own children and their educations' fit with your family's life and their personalities and potential.
That's what I'm actually doing, trying to choose the school that would fit us and maximise chances of getting into it. That's what I've done for DC1 who will never be an all-rounder but whose geeky personality perfectly fits a grammar with a strong STEM focus and IQ based entry.
As I said before, the weakest point in this is you can't actually predict at an early age. But it's easier to transfer to a less selective school later if need be.

The reality is beyond a few "brand" names in education - Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford, MIT - most people, even highly educated people, don't really recognise schools or colleges or universtities.

I totally agree, Pallisers. I'm not infatuated with brands (who would have heard about Harvey Mudd here? :) ), otherwise I would be aiming at SP only because everywhere else is rubbish anyway, isn't it ;)
There is a wide wide world out there and more complex and interesting than league tables and brand names.

Thank you for your comment. It made me think again about family vs social values. I understand you point about nuclear family and its own interests and values in a particular circumstances, but it's probably the other way round for us. I'm not 100% sure now but you made me think about it, thank you for that.

It turned out to be quite an interesting thread and I now understand better the situation at one of the outstanding comps DC1 went to, where HT was hired from a highly selective and highly ranked specialist school, then after a couple of years bullied by [middle class] parents for instilling the culture of high achievement and discipline, then headhunted by a top-10 grammar. The school has been in constant decline since HT left, but hey ho who cares, we bullies got what we wanted and we don't need no education! And that's the parents' attitude, not just children's!

I've never experienced this kind of bullying in my school life as being G&T I went to a specialist school where the attitude was totally different, so the whole story was a puzzle to me. Having read this thread, I can see what it was about. The comments here makes me wonder if this particular attitude and school atmosphere is what I'm subconsciously trying to avoid at all cost

I find this thread fascinating and depressing in equal measure, specifically in illustrating how hugely different the norms and values of certain groups of people can be, based on precisely where they live and (most particularly) their micro peer group.

The brightest family I know (university academics, exchange scholarships to US university, Arkwright scholars, Oxbridge entrance, Maths Olympiad types) had children who weren't in school until 4.5 (Scotland) and never took a selective school entrance exam. That was absolutely the norm in their specific university academics micro peer group. Equally I have boggled at distant family relatives who live pretty much next to one of the best state schools in London but didn't even apply to it 'because it didn't contain the right sort of people'.

Honestly, OP, if your child is happy, reasonably bright and, specifically, well supported by you, they will be fine.

Absolutely, cantkeepawayforever, the gap is HUGE.

Both me and DH had US scholarships, went to top-tier unis, I have PhD in STEM subject, left academia for industry so have experience of both, DH is ex-Big-4, top-3 MBA, 8 languages though never studied linguistic subjects at uni, DC1 has maths olympiad awards without any preparation whatsoever, no prep for grammar entrance either, and we are pretty ordinary in our families. I don't think it's terribly wrong for us to look at academic schools :)
Having said that, DC2 doesn't show early signs of giftedness so we don't aim too high, for fear of overstretching. We would be absolutely happy if there was a local comp that would nurture high achievements but there is none - precisely because of the attitude displayed in this thread and the damage local parents with this attitude have done to our local comp.

VitAL,

That is a shame - both my (able) DC attend a good local comprehensive that nurtures children of all abilities - including very able DC - extremely well.

Yes, in a way it's about "not the right sort of people" as I certainly don't want my children to be bullied at school for aiming higher as I was bullied here :) I don't think it a healthy situation for a child (though I guess many bullies will now say that it's good to be toughened by bullying in childhood and a child should be exposed to it to develop coping strategies and succeed in life).

I don't think it's wrong for you to look at academic schools on the assumption that your children may be academic.

But you are so inside your little north London bubble you can't seem to understand that there's more than one way to do this.

None of our children ( so far ) have been near a tutor or a formal exam before the age of 14. The idea of them being tutored and assessed at age 4 and having a breakdown at 7 makes me feel desperately sad. They have had normal happy childhoods with none of the pressures and stresses you are placing on your children.

The oldest went to Oxford and now works at a magic circle law firm. The second is studying medicine at a RG uni. The others are still at school and busy having fun. One plays at international level in his chosen sport.

I know you want to believe that the rest of us who are aghast at you have two GCSEs between us and kids in MacJobs. And that you HAVE to do it this way or everything will go to hell in a hadcart.

But you are wrong. You do have choices here.

I should probably point out that my academic history, though UK based (Oxbridge), is pretty much identical to yours.

But I live somewhere from where the North London bubble seems very odd, as children achieve extremely highly from a background of entirely normal state primaries and comps.