Permanent Exclusion at Six years of age.

[HoundoftheBaskervilles]

I don't want to be writing this, I can't believe I've got here, but i need the help of the women on this board.

My daughter is six years old, I have her and a DS (who is the World's most, gentle and biddable child), DD is different, has been volatile from starting school (she was fine at pre-school).

From the age of four DD has been angry, (she's the youngest in the year, August born, and whilst I think this is contributory I don't think it's causal), she started school early and I think I may have made a mistake at putting her on the school bus as a young four year old, but, we live rurally and DH works away & I (despite repeated efforts, have yet to pass my driving test - it was expedient at the time) The first school she went to, she wigged out on the school bus, attacked other children, it wasn't great. I'm trying to precis here, but the school handled it badly, they kept putting her in isolation at the age of four and we had many meetings, I kept trying to tell them, many of her feelings are relating to rejection - she's always been insecure (for no reason - she's had a happy life - but she feels, and always has, rejection very seriously).

So we changed schools, we went to a school recommended by our peers, and it's been brilliant, so supportive, we accessed CAHMS, She had one to one support (which was ended at Easter on the behest of the LEA).

But last week, it all went wrong, she's been great at school for nine months, brilliant, not a problem, last thursday she started to go a little off the wall. Tried to abscond, it was handled ok, tried to abscond the next day, I was called in, when I got there, she'd been physically restrained for 30 mins, the two teachers who were involved in the restraint were looking resigned, but not upset. She was released and immediately went for the teacher that had restrained her, kicked her & pulled her hair, the teacher stormed off with the epitaph 'I've had it with this school',

I managed to calm her down and she wanted to apologise, we went to the office, but the teacher concerned was still crying, when she saw this DD grinned, it was a nervous grin, but it was still a grin, the secretary chased her out with a 'I don't think that's very nice DD', I just excited the area, I had to get away, I knew apologies were futile by this point.

She was excluded for three days, I had the letter yesterday, it hurt, but I understood, I went in today to what I thought was a reintegration interview, I was met by the Vicar who serves on the board of govs and was given a letter of permanent exclusion.

I've been blindsided, I'm so upset, I had 30 seconds to formulate an appropriate response. She's six, I feel she's been excluded from education forever.

SIX

Fuck - I'm so upset - I need some help here.

And OP situation sounds terribly difficult for all - but no-one should be seeing what happened as a success.

Just to say OP (I know others have). If your dd's nearest suitable school is more than 3 miles away she will be provided with transport. Your ds wouldn't have to leave. It is important that your dd is in the right school that can manage her behaviour. It may be the local school (with proper support), it may be another school, but if it is deemed to be a school further away she will get transport.

And just to add the right school is a godsend. Ds1 moved from the local mainstream who were horribly out of their depth to his current school in year 1 (he's now year 11) - and my word what a refreshing change. He went from somewhere he was treated as animal, to somewhere he is valued, respected and liked - even when he is being an almighty PITA. When issues arise (which of course they do given his needs) we are able to have sensible discussions about approaches - we don't always agree, but we always come to an agreement in approach.

The initial school saw ds1 as a major problem, his current school sees him as someone who needs support to do his best. School placements breaking down can sometimes be the thing that leads to an appropriate level of support and movement to an environment that allows a child to thrive. Don't be too scared about a move.

I agree about the right school being a godsend. The right place will make Dd feel valued

It seems so unfair that the appeal will be heard by parent governors who may well be biased. In a small school they may think they want a "naughty child" excluded if that is the reputation your dd is getting to protect their own child's education. But that seems very unfair. Is there no route to ask for it to be more independent LEA types who hear it?

Can you get to see your MP before the appeal?

Remember whatever happens im sure your dd has plenty of lovely qualities.

You are entitled to have copies of all the relevant documentation well in advance of the governors' meeting. It should include a full account of the incident and what led up to it so that you understand what happened. You are also entitled to object to the governors on the panel if you know them in a personal capacity. I think schools are usually required to keep separate records when they use restraint, so if that isn't amongst the documents you should ask about it.

I would suggest you ask what training the teachers involved in the restraint had had, and explore what they did during that 30 minute period to talk dd down. They should really have gone someone like the SENCO or, if available, dd's previous 1:1 to help. Also, ask whether DD was on the SEN register and whether they should have applied for a statement to ensure that the 1:1 was retained and her needs properly identified and met.

Whatever happens with the meeting, DD has a right to full time education from the 6th day after the initial exclusion. If that hasn't been arranged, chase it up with the local authority now.

Hi, sorry I disappeared, have been spending some time with DD, I explained to her that she couldn't go back to school tomorrow but didn't elaborate any further, I guess I'll wait for the outcome of the appeal before having that particular conversation with her.

I'll have to be brief as I've got a friend coming over but I'll have a proper read of all the comments in the morning, there seems to be some valuable advice here and I really appreciate everyone that's taken the time to help me.

Thank you so much, I'll be back in the morning and I'll let you know how I'm getting on with everything.

And thanks for the supportive PMs, I'll answer them tomorrow, it's been a bit fraught today, but I'm feeling a bit calmer now, I guess I've got to keep a level head at the moment.

I haven't got any practical advice but wanted to add a supportive voice to the others

Sounds hideous and Im sure you are doing your level best to get through a situation which you don't understand and don't even have the luxury of time and space to deal with your own shock and hurt. Awful situation for you and your dd.

Good luck with your dd

OP, Wales has slightly different rules from England when it comes to exclusions.
However the school is required to hold a discipline panel at which a committee of 3 minimum governors have to decide whether or not the head teacher was correct in making their decision to PM your daughter. The three members of the panel should not have any prior knowledge or be in a position where a conflict of interest could arise. In a school of 54 pupils, 3 parent governors being on the discipline panel is a 100% guarantee that they will have a conflict of interest. That is not a comment on whether parent governors can be on such a panel but it is a comment on what the situation is in a school of 54 pupils where there will be probably 3 classes.
Have you been told who will be on the discipline panel? Have you seen any paperwork from the school on the incident? Have the school tried to interview your daughter to get her side of the incident? What exactly does the original letter that you got from the school say and what does the letter handed to you by the vicar say?
You need to move away from the concern for your daughter and the shock of this, to actually thinking seriously how you will approach the discipline panel meeting and what you will say about the steps taken by the school during this incident.
PM me if you want, as I do have considerable knowledge of exclusion hearings both in England and Wales.

To answer Jimjam's question, I work in specialist provision in mainstream. Restraint is an absolute last resort. I am trained in (and use) de-escalation. Most children will take the option of running off/going to a safe space/sensory tent rather than attacking staff. Most. The idea that a 6 year - old isn't a danger to staff is nonsense. Injuries I've sustained include serious concussion (headbutt to temple), whiplash (hit with force across neck, I continue to suffer neck problems 5 years after that one), torn tendons in arm (off for a month, unable to lift/hug my own child), clumps torn out of my hair, facial injury after being hit by a flying chair.

If you haven't worked with the children I have, your experience is different. Some children do not stop and will seek out staff and attack them, and continue attacking them despite all other strategies/support being in place. Thankfully these are rare, but try managing that in mainstream, with open plan classrooms and a child running through the school climbing on and jumping off furniture, throwing chairs/anything else that comes to hand, and hitting other children/staff. The trigger? He wants to go home and knows Mum will be called.

In a restraint situation with this child, he would comply with all de-escalation instructions as I sought to minimise length I was holding. He would appear calm, I would reassure/offer alternatives e.g. to go to tent (which he liked), as soon as he was out of the hold he would be attacking staff again. I have 14 years experience working with children with multiple and complex needs. There is not always an alternative. It's distressing for staff too, nobody would choose to restrain a child lightly.

i didn't say that a 6 year old isn't a danger to staff - but you have many more options with a 6 year old than a 16 year old.

I also disagree that restraint is always used appropriately. In mainstream schools it is often used when staff feel out of control (I'm talking about regular mainstream here) & I have certainly come across instances where it absolutely should not have been used, & where one look at the behaviour plan tells you staff are out of their depth. The whole incident above sounds one if staff out of their depth & I would always say that 30 minutes of restraint followed by the child attacking should lead to analysis of what went wrong - a good provision would do that anyway.

I asked for some of my posts to be deleted as they were identifying, but I did say I am aware some children are calmed by holding - but that should be a very specific technique for an individual child - not a first response.

I think those of us who are around children who show distressed begaviours can all reel off a list of injuries & trips to A&E. If think it's important that those incidents are seen for what they are - behaviour management that hasn't worked. When that happens to me I analyse what went wrong & why. In ds1's case you get injured if you don't give him space to calm down (e.g. Broken bone because I tried to hold him when he was having a panic attack - reason being we were in a cliff path - what went wrong? Me taking him on a cloud path with the signs he was showing was plain stupid - & not something I'll do again & a reminder that for ds1 space is the most important part of any behaviour plan dealing with crisis & if he can't get it things go wrong, people get hurt & the reason he couldn't be given space needs to be revisited. Ignore that at your peril).

Reading this thread I am VERY relieved that ds1 attends a school & respite provision with hands off approaches to behaviour management (albeit you can never promise it won't be necessary - but I am confident if used it would be last resort & shortest time possible). I'm also pleased we have the sort of relationship where we can disagree without them becoming defensive - and while we might disagree we do always manage to come to an agreement on how to move forwards. Those sorts of open & mutually respectful relationships are essential when managing severe distressed behaviours.

Saintlyjimjams didn't say that a 6 year old wasn't dangerous - she said that that a 6 year old being restrained wasn't as dangerous as a 16 year old in the same situation.

I have a now 9 year old who was very aggressive and difficult at 6 - didn't hit a teacher but we had pretty nearly the works otherwise - - and I am bloody surprised he didn't get himself excluded. Fortunately he had a very supportive school. If it helps you, he has made enormous progress with the right support and aggression is now a very very rare event.

I'd second what many others have said:

-come and post on the SN boards

• contact IPSEA or Parent Partnership if you have them in Wales for advice on the appeal and where you go from here
• getting DD the right support is your goal now which might be a move or back to school with 1:1. She could obviously do it with support so the obvious move is to put the support back
• just a note, this time of year is horrendous for kids with any issues. Transitions, new classes, sports days etc. DS is all over the place. This may underly the incident.
• I am a parent governor and would be most reluctant to sit on any exclusion panel that involved a child I knew in any capacity at all. I don't think it's fair on either party. Following admissions advice I would query this and ask for a more balanced and appropriate panel.

Sorry disjointed post but hope it helps.

Also, more knowledgable posters than me on this one, but I would get in touch with the LEA asap. They won't want to put her in a special school 30 miles away unless they really have to, as that costs £££, so I imagine they will be keen to work with you and any available schools to find a solution.

I'd push for a statement or education, health and care plan (not sure which they are in Wales) and a proper consideration of her needs. Good luck.

Well I've spent most of the day on the phone, spoke to Snap Cymru but they were unable to help because we live in England so was referred to the local Parent Partnership who put me in touch with a woman who deals with appeals and exclusions.

Whilst she said it looks as though permanent exclusion is the wrong decision in this case and seems punitive given the long spell of calm behaviour, 99.9% of appeals apparently fail and the exclusion is upheld (which seems hardly surprising, given the board is made of of governors), so whilst I'm still going ahead, it feels like an exercise in futility now.

She also said that I'm supposed to select a school I would like her to attend and then she'll arrange a 'managed transfer', I did quiz her as to whether the school would even accept DD, given her permanent exclusion but she seemed to think that wouldn't be a problem.

HOWEVER, as we are rural the choice of schools within a reasonable distance is very limited, it also seems completely pointless to just transfer her from one school to another, I question how, in any way, this will be helpful. She also informed me that there would be no transport available and the LEA was under no obligation to provide any, so if the exclusion is upheld it would seem that the only option will be to uproot DS too.

All of which has left me feeling a bit hopeless, seems like it's a fait accompli and I have no recourse.

She's coming to the house for a meeting and will accompany me to the appeal, but will be there in an independent capacity, rather than an advocate.

Where do I go from here?

If the nearest suitable school really is 30 miles away then you should be getting free transport. This is what the government says on the subject:

www.gov.uk/free-school-transport

That's what I thought, our nearest school isn't 30 miles away but if they were talking about the nearest school that offers specialised education services it's 22 miles and the distance from DS's school to there is about 30 miles.

From what I've been advised today, I have to pick another mainstream school nearby, but as it won't be the catchment school, there is no obligation to provide transport.

I think it would only apply if she had a statement, which she doesn't, and the pediatrician we saw through CAMHS, believed that there was no reason to statement in her case.

Which may be true, it just seems that there would be a lot more help available to me if she was statemented, as she's not it feels as though we're pretty much unsupported here.

I think you need an advocate or some other kind of support in the meeting.
The new school has to take her afaik.
I think you need some more advice re paying for transport.

If the nearest suitable school is more than 3 miles away she should get transport. Have a look here: www.gov.uk/free-school-transport

yes good link about transport.
You will need to put your foot down OP as there WILL be people who will deliberately mislead you , talk shite to you, and basically blame you for not having a perfect child.

They are telling you a load of crap aboit transport. Usually if you 'choose' a school further away you don't get transport - because your nearest school is less than 3 miles away & suitable - but you have chosen not to go there.

In your case the nearest school is not suitable (if it was she would be there). Unless there is another school under 3 miles away she should get transport. It's nothing to so with statements etc. if she cannot access a school within 3 miles if your house then she gets transport.

If you email them, link to my above link & cc your MP 'for information' I'm sure your council will remember their legal duties

Thanks Saintly I will do just that!! The fact that we live on the border also seems to be fudging the matter somewhat as regards to who holds responsibility for providing what.

Snap Cymru said they couldn't help, but the woman I spoke to today works in our English county so is limited in the help she can offer if I chose further provision in Wales.

Sunny it feels like I am already falling down the rabbit hole of misleading information, I've emailed the school and asked them for a thorough reasoning by which this decision was reached in the first place, as I feel I'm not in full possession of the facts and am shooting in the dark so to speak. Do they have an obligation to provide that information?

On top of which, I now have a very angry and unhappy six year old, who desperately wants to go back to school and is taking her frustrations out on the one person it's safe to do so with.

If I thought it would help on any level, I'd probably be swiggin neat gin right now!