Permanent Exclusion at Six years of age.

[HoundoftheBaskervilles]

I don't want to be writing this, I can't believe I've got here, but i need the help of the women on this board.

My daughter is six years old, I have her and a DS (who is the World's most, gentle and biddable child), DD is different, has been volatile from starting school (she was fine at pre-school).

From the age of four DD has been angry, (she's the youngest in the year, August born, and whilst I think this is contributory I don't think it's causal), she started school early and I think I may have made a mistake at putting her on the school bus as a young four year old, but, we live rurally and DH works away & I (despite repeated efforts, have yet to pass my driving test - it was expedient at the time) The first school she went to, she wigged out on the school bus, attacked other children, it wasn't great. I'm trying to precis here, but the school handled it badly, they kept putting her in isolation at the age of four and we had many meetings, I kept trying to tell them, many of her feelings are relating to rejection - she's always been insecure (for no reason - she's had a happy life - but she feels, and always has, rejection very seriously).

So we changed schools, we went to a school recommended by our peers, and it's been brilliant, so supportive, we accessed CAHMS, She had one to one support (which was ended at Easter on the behest of the LEA).

But last week, it all went wrong, she's been great at school for nine months, brilliant, not a problem, last thursday she started to go a little off the wall. Tried to abscond, it was handled ok, tried to abscond the next day, I was called in, when I got there, she'd been physically restrained for 30 mins, the two teachers who were involved in the restraint were looking resigned, but not upset. She was released and immediately went for the teacher that had restrained her, kicked her & pulled her hair, the teacher stormed off with the epitaph 'I've had it with this school',

I managed to calm her down and she wanted to apologise, we went to the office, but the teacher concerned was still crying, when she saw this DD grinned, it was a nervous grin, but it was still a grin, the secretary chased her out with a 'I don't think that's very nice DD', I just excited the area, I had to get away, I knew apologies were futile by this point.

She was excluded for three days, I had the letter yesterday, it hurt, but I understood, I went in today to what I thought was a reintegration interview, I was met by the Vicar who serves on the board of govs and was given a letter of permanent exclusion.

I've been blindsided, I'm so upset, I had 30 seconds to formulate an appropriate response. She's six, I feel she's been excluded from education forever.

SIX

Fuck - I'm so upset - I need some help here.

Unless the OPs child has a statement (EHCP) then the LEA aren't responsible for 1-1 support (so can't remove it) and if the OPs child had a statement then the LEA is legally required to fulfil the terms of the statement

The facts are that your child appears to have needed restraint for 30 minutes after trying to abscond. When released she then attacked a teacher. As such a three day exclusion seems to be the very minimum that would be appropriate.
However things have changed and there are worrying signs that the school have got this wrong. Firstly the only person who can exclude a pupil is the headteacher or an acting head teacher. I assume that this did happen and you were told a 3 day exclusion. What is important is what the letter said as to whether that was a 3 day exclusion and you should come into the school on X for a reintegration meeting or did it say daughter has been excluded for 3 days whilst I investigate further and this may lead to a permanent exclusion.
The worrying aspect is that you were met by the vicar, as one of the governors and were given the permanent exclusion letter. There is no way that the vicar or anybody else on the GB should have been involved at this stage of the proceedings. The only person who should have made that decision was the head teacher.
There is an appeal process that you now need to go through and that involves a meeting with a discipline panel of the GB, which should clearly not involve the vicar as they are tainted.
I have considerable experience of sitting on GB discipline panels and subsequent independent review panels, so if you want further info please PM me. But I do think that you need to accept you have a troubled daughter, who needs help and actually the punishment could actually fit the crime, even though she is only 6. What has not happened is anybody trying to establish from your daughter what actually were the triggers for this and what happened doing the 30 minute restraint period. That should have been something that the school head teacher tried to establish before the decision to permanent exclude.

Mrz I know that but equally the LA can't remove Camhs support. My point was that it seems to be the 121 that went at Easter not CAMHS.

I am sorry you have to go through the this. However, as I read this you come out as a passive observer of the situation. You complain about school but say nothing about what you are doing to change your daughter's behaviour or help her in other ways.

Your daughter has had issues with aggression over two years by now. It looks to me like one of the following must be true:

• She needs some real help from a psychologist (or another specialist) - In that case why are you not banging on all doors demanding this help? There are GPs and other avenues for accessing such help. And, the little sibling and his safety is something that needs to be considered.

• She does not have underlying psychological issues, but is lucking structure and discipline. Only parent can teach her that actions have consequences. Excusing her behaviour and finding faults with the teachers/school does little good and teaches her nothing. Or, worse, teaches her that she can continue to behave this way.

You are your daughters best hope for figuring it out. And you need to act, not only feel sorry for her/yourself. Demand help for her. Get a driving licence - it's been 2 years and most people manage to do it somehow.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but some of this might help you.

Ok, my OP was just getting it out there,I was distressed, I've been blindsided by this, I have been to the GP and have have seen an independent child psychologist, the GP referred me to a CAHMS ed psych who deemed (as I think) there's no underlying pathology, the Independent Ed Psych thought there was something that could be investigated, possibly, but at £1300 for a full assessment, I wasn't in the position to pursue that option at the time.

So CAHMS deemed her fine, the LEA (Wales btw, so I don't know whether it differs in England), saw a problem and offered support with caveats, that support ended at Easter, and things have been fine, great even, I really thought we'd turned a corner, it was wonderful, I felt so hopeful, and now this. I feel as though I've been thrust into a crisis situation with no lead in - I really do feel as though I've been thrown to the wolves here.

It's desperate, I feel desperate, and the poster that quoted me saying that I feel my six year old is done, my attitude to her and the way am am with her, is relentlessly positive I am so positive with her, she knows nothing of this. I have no idea how to even tell her she can't go back, she'll be utterly destroyed by it, I have no idea how to even begin that conversation.

And I am distraught and I do feel she's been written off, we're very rural, the only option is a special school 30 miles away, which essentially blocks my son from going to his current school because it's logistically impossible.

I'm in pieces, it's just so out of the blue, no-one has told me exactly what happened on Friday so I'm shooting in the dark too, I just feel abandoned and that my family is cast away.

I was told I have an appeal set next Wednesday, it's essentially a jury of my peers as it's three parent governors, all of whom I socialise with, I horribly suspect they're going to uphold the exclusion as it's a lovely middle class school of 54 pupils, I can't imagine they will uphold my position. I can't bear it.

I would second all that Admission has said.

Some events here seem not to have conformed to the relevant code and procedures. (I am judging by the standards of the Dept for Education exclusion guidance for England but I imagine the comparable guidance for Wales will be very similar; I suggest you find it online and study it). As far as I can see, IPSEA (again, google them) offer advice and services in England, but I imagine there's a Welsh counterpart.

If your appeal to the governors is not successful, use your rights to a further review. But be aware that the English guidance (and once again I'm assuming there is something similar for Wales) says something along the lines of the independent panel being able to quash the exclusion decision if the procedure was so flawed that justice was not done. A flaw in the process does not necessarily mean that you'll get the place back in the school.

Admission is right, too, about the need to reflect on what your child needs. At the last permanent exclusion review that I chaired, much of the discussion was about what the child needed, to be safe at school and to access an education. I can understand why you are upset, and the potential impact of your child not being at this school, but it does sound as if this school has not been a safe environment for her. "Wigging out" on the bus (which seems a strangely jokey expression for something potentially dangerous to her and others) and being in such a state that she required restraint suggests something is very badly awry and school has not been a safe experience for her. If you can
identify ways of making it safer, set them out for the governors.

And MM, I am anything but a passive observer, I am very much involved in my daughter's problems, I do feel after nine months of exemplary behaviour I have been badly served by the current state of affairs. She is NOT lacking structure and discipline, we have a very steady and structured home life, but thanks for your comments, as an aside, I have NOT excused her behaviour to her, she knows that what happened on Friday was completely unacceptable. My comments on here are a direct result of a situation that happened today that completely took me by surprise.

I do not excuse her behaviour, I spend a great deal of time feeling guilt and feelings of inadequacy because of it, I have knocked on many doors, do you have a child with issues? I suspect not. I almost feel I know you, I've taken (and failed) my driving test three times, I continue to try, I'll be taking it again in August.

But thanks, thanks, your comments have undoubtedly helped me.

Tough love, it's always a winner!

Try posting on the SN needs boards as a lot of us there have unfortunately similar experience both with the inadequacies of CAMHS and with schooling. To give you a little bit of hope although we definitely did not think so at the time permanent exclusion was the best thing that could have happened to ds1 as it finally got him the help he needed. It is shocking that things have to wait until a child gets physically violent before help is given but that is the way of most LEA's. You need to apply for an EHCP (SOSSEN or IPSEA are good sources of advice) as soon as possible and ignore them when they tell you she will not get one because she is too clever as this is UNTRUE (my ds's are testament to that). Above all do not let them put her into another mainstream school unless she is given additional support because the same thing is likely to happen again. In ds1's case he was diagnosed with AS about six months after the permanent exclusion and eventually, after a managed move failed rapidly (unsurprisingly as he was given no extra support), he was given a place at an EBD primary where he thrived because of the wonderful staff who really understood his difficulties. Whether he could have survived in mainstream if support had been given we will never know because we were not prepared to run the risk of further damage to his mental health by going through the exclusion process with yet another school.

op. I'm going to say pretty much as oneineeight try the special needs boards. i have a July-born dd - who'd be the same age as your dd and we have had lots of issues, but none of these present themselves at school (apparently!).

My 6yo dd self-harms. It is incredibly distressing. There is virtually no help out there. I saw a psych last year for over a year who diagnosed anxiety. I've been saying autism for two years to anyone who will listen. I also have three other dcs who are your average kids, so I can't see how my parenting can be to blame (hasn't stopped school saying that I need to be stricter and being told to go on parenting courses).

After the first incident of self-harming, the psych (seen on the NHS on a tier 2 level -outside of camhs) referred her to specialist camhs. After one hour, the specialist camhs practitioner said she suspected autism and spd. However, we are now back where we started, referral has been accepted, but we have to wait for testing . So, my 6yo dd still self harms, and I just have to deal with it. She doesn't draw blood, she hits me.

one has it right, support on the NHS can be pretty patchy. I can only hope that my local camhs is up-to-speed with autism on girls, just like this specialist camhs practitioner. Check in on the special needs board also. I only really lurk, but it's been immensely helpful to me.

Btw, if you got a private diagnosis, I don't believe you would get a statement at school anyway, so going privately really wouldn't help. Yes, it would help you (I'm all ready to do it myself should this waiting time to test dd go past the 2 months I've been advised) but you need to stay in the NHS to get support at school etc.

Thank you One, your response has made me cry.

I feel I have to appeal next week because I can't not, If DD has to leave, DS does too. It's completely untenable that they go to different schools, we're rural and there's a 30 mile difference between the school they're at now and the school that's been suggested for DD.

Even if I could drive, it wouldn't work.

My only other option is to home-school DD and I'm not that parent I don't think.

Maybe I'll have to be.

Sorry, cross posted there, thank you too, Camel and Im, I really appreciate it.

You're right, I need to remove my emotion, I've been cycling between sobbing and ire all night. I can't sleep, it's obviously hard and raw right now.

But it's hard, I feel totally fucked over by the school, I had NO warning, it was a complete blindside, I had ten seconds of walking in there and being handed a letter, what is the appropriate response in those circumstances?

She try's to cut herself with a knife - an old ikea knife that was not at all sharp.

On the weekend the gripped a pizza wheel trying to cut her fingers.

She crossed the road slowly and carelessly. Runs away from me and crosses busy roads by herself. Only does this when she is 'melting down'

She trys to eye gouge herself when she is really upset.

I think that step to actually 'hurting' herself is not far away. This was taken very very seriously as crossing a threshold by cahms. She does all that hitting me also, though! I view that differently...

If they place your DD in the SS (although depending on who has suggested that I think that might be quite a way down the pipeline) then she will get LEA transport. A taxi will pick her up from your door and bring her back- you would not be expected to do a 30mile school run.

Also, she doesn't just self-harm, that was just the straw that broke the camel's back really in getting help - and just incredibly sad for me that when they take a step like that, it really seems that innocence is lost. Not just for dd, but for her 3 siblings.

Apart from that, she presents very stereotypically like an autistic girl. Clever, reasonably popular (look below the surface and you'll definitely see the cracks), struggle with transactions, repetitive talk, inflexibility/rigidity, imaginative play huge, but really only copying TV shows she's watched.

Regarding the panel, couldn't they excuse themselves as they know you socially? There must be other governors who could replace them. It seems unfair on both sides.

Lots of sympathy , op. We moved from a village to a town lately and have ended up coincidentally with the school with enhanced mainstream provision so when ds's behaviour went haywire the school has had expertise and commitment to inclusion that his old village school might not have had.
I am unimpressed by how your school have handled it but it does sound like another school could help your dd a lot more. Hope things resolve for you x

I can logistically home-ed - ish, I work from home, but I have to work, we have a business, I do sales, no sales - no income and [name removed by MNHQ] is not a child who can be left to do her thing.

What are my options here?

Thank you all, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your advice.

I think the two things you need to do are;

find out how she is going to be educated from Day 6.

apply for Statutory Assessment so her needs can be properly weighed up and suitable provision put in place.