MNHQ here: 'school gate' fines for being late to school - what do you think?

[RowanMumsnet]

Morning all

We're being asked for your views on a couple of press stories over recent days (here and here - ££) indicating that some schools are going to start fining the parents of children who are late to school more than ten times a term. The fines will be £60, doubling if they're not paid within 21 days, and ultimately (as with unauthorised term-time absences) parents could be prosecuted and even jailed for non-payment.

What do you think? Does your school already do this? Is it a constructively tough approach to persistent lateness, or a wild overreaction - or something else?

Would be great to hear what you think.

Thanks
MNHQ

I don't think a fine deals with the issue does it.

not everyone who's late is late cos they can't be arsed to do it. some will be late due to troubles with their children. mornings can be stressful enough without parents having to worry about a fine when they finally manage to get their child to school.

many get transport to school. parents aren't in control of that.

are the schools going to each any every parent who parks dangerously/inconsiderately infront of schools or so far on to the fuckin pavement you cant get past with a pram!!!#bitter

*fine each and..

it would be really bad for home/school relations IMO.
After all this relationship is already fraught yet is said to be of paramount importance to the child's educational well being.

Will it go hand-in-hand with support to get children in on time, eg alternative entrances for children with additional needs who cope badly with arriving en masse, timely transport for those at special schools or otherwise unavoidably out of their local area, social support for struggling families, reinforcements for those coaxing school refusers through the gate?

I'd support measures taken against those persistently thoughtlessly or carelessly late, although I'm not sure £60 fines are appropriate. Means tested?

For persistant offenders, possibly. I often see the same parents meandering along the road to school as if they have all day when I am walking back after drop off. They will arrive at least ten minutes after the bell and it must be very disruptive for the teacher who is trying to start a lesson, not to mention unfair on the child who is constantly late.

I think those that struggle to get to school because of behavioural issues, public transport issues, illnesses etc will end up feeling even more up against the system. Even more of an "Us" & "Them" and relationships could seriously breakdown.

The ones that cba may end up thinking "Fuck it, I'll get fined anyway." and not bother taking their children in at all.

There will be parents who will phone up on the 11th morning of being late and say their child is sick, rather than be fined.

Fines also penalise the poorest member of our society.

So no, I don't agree.

It's a stupid idea , parents who are running late will simply phone up and say their kids are sick.

Cross post

And what would happen if the fine meant that the parent was no longer able to afford petrol. that week to get her kid to school.

No. Not everybody haa £60 spare for a fine.

Whilst being continuously late isn't ideal I don't think fines are the way to go.

People are struggling enough as it is.

I think this will backfire on the schools in the long run.

It will lead to resentment and damage the relationship between parents and schools.

Currently a child arriving after the register has closed will be marked as absent for the morning (one session). If parents phone in sick to avoid fines, that same child would then be absent for the morning and the afternoon (two sessions). Attendance rates would drop rather than increase.

It also seems unfair when so many children have missed out on their nearest school due to a shortage of places. If they are unable to walk to school, they are far more likely to be delayed by traffic and transport issues.

I also don't hold out much hope for things like SN and disabilities being taken into account.

Ridiculous idea if you ask me and dd was only ever late once in Primary after a major house fire closed all exits to our estate. It would be really difficult to weed out people with genuine reasons for lateness such as SEN, transport, family difficulties from those who just can't be bothered to get their children to school on time.
Dd had a Dr's appointment and got to Secondary school at the end of first lesson. Even though I notified the school in advance and dd had an appointment card it has been recorded as an unauthorised late mark. I assume in error but if not should she ever have another appointment in school time I will keep her at home for the whole session which will be recorded as an authorised absence.

A lot of the responses here already assume a very "us" and "them" approach to school.
I think the vast majority of schools are very aware of extenuating circumstances such as limited mobility (child or parent), use of taxi, relocation and therefore dependence on public transport etc. They also understand that children sometimes have meltdowns that prevent them arriving at school on time.
However, there are at the same time some households that consistently arrive fifteen minutes late - as though their clocks read differently or something - meaning that their children consistently miss the first part of every day, the introduction to the first lesson etc.
In our school a family liaison officer works with those families to help them address whatever problems there are causing that.... But if that doesn't solve the problem, what can you do? I think it could be an ultimate sanction, potentially.
(Though our school also doesn't immediately fine for unauthorised absence, but does have the threat of a fine available as a sanction for recurrent unauthorised absence and as a result has a very high attendance rate)

I'm not sure if a fine is neccesarily the answer but I do agree that this needs tackling. I live just over two miles from my children's primary school so have to drive and set off quite early sometimes in case of traffic yet I still manage to get my kids in on time 99% of the time. Yet I see othwr parents day in day out running in at 9 o clock when they live literally round the corner and I think omg! What excuse could they possibly have for not getting them in on time, some parents just don't care unfortunately, but maybe a fine will make them care.

Surely people will just start calling in sick instead? Although I do agree the persistently late lot need tackling. I'm just not sure fines are the best way because they disproportinately punish those on lower incomes and they don't tackle the root cause. There is a parent I have known since nursery who has an attitude I would not believe if I hadn't heard it myself. His opinion is that it is only a few minutes and they can just wait for him/his daughter.

I'm also not sure that the school record keeping is always up to the job. For example, we had the attendance record for my Y1 child and one two occasions when I had permission to bring him in later he was recorded as "late" the same as if I'd just signed him after the bell. The first time I brought him in about 11am due to waiting out the 48 hour sick bug rule and on another when I had phoned him in sick at 7am and then he'd perked up a lot after a short nap, calpol and some breakfast I phoned school first thing and agreed to take him in at 9.30am on proviso they ring me if he needed to come home. Both times the school said to bring him in straight away instead of waiting for afternoon registration.

I suspect people who cannot to be bothered to get their children to school on time 10 times a term will not be bothered by the idea of a fine. They either don't value education at all or have troubled/chaotic lives. Both need help not fines.

I think that parents have enough to deal with.

Children who are late more than 10 times, I would guess they have parents who don't give a shit, or there are SN in the family (that child or a sibling) that makes mornings stressful, or they have a long way to travel and are at the mercy of traffic/mode of transport.

Parents who don't give a shit, well a fine isn't going to suddenly make them re-examine their whole outlook.

Families where there are children or parents with SN or disabilities are already dealing with enough.

Children with a long way to travel shouldn't be fined for factors beyond their control.

Instead of fining parents, we need to be examining the causes of lateness and absence from school and deal with the causes at the root. Fines aren't the answer.

Mr entitled who I referenced above would actually see it as his right to be late because he's paid for it now. £6 per instance is nothing when you earn £35-40ph and value your time and right to be late more highly than the £60 fine.

No no no! The people this is supposed to target ie the can't be arsed lot are in a minority.

I live over 6 miles from DCs school. Traffic is sometimes horrendous. I live rurally and occasionally get stuck behind farm vehicles. Sometimes the car doesn't start or the snow makes it difficult to get along the lanes. Sometimes ex DH takes the kids and is late. Would that count towards my 10 strikes?

Movingon, couldn't agree more.

Freakanomics has this same scenario. A nursery was having problems with late pickups. They introduced a fining system. Lateness then increased. By introducing the fining system they legitimised lateness it just came with a cost!

My dd friend was like this, always late for school. Her mum was terrible at time keeping.
I don't think a fine would have made her manage herself better.
she wasn't lazy, just worked all weird and wonderful hours.
Now the girl is y6, walks herself and even gets herself in school on time when they go early for SATS extra lessons.

My Ds has never been late once in his 5 years at school with the exception of a couple of early GP appointments.

However I think it is a dreadful idea. I do see the same few people walking to school daily on my way home. However they do need to look at how to support these families.

We talk a lot about positive reinforcement for kids yet we seem to be set on punishing parents for term time holidays , now lateness.

I think it also seems blanket rule, disabilities in the house , tantrums, children at different schools, children been allocated places a long way from home. to name a few.