MNHQ here: 'school gate' fines for being late to school - what do you think?

[RowanMumsnet]

Morning all

We're being asked for your views on a couple of press stories over recent days (here and here - ££) indicating that some schools are going to start fining the parents of children who are late to school more than ten times a term. The fines will be £60, doubling if they're not paid within 21 days, and ultimately (as with unauthorised term-time absences) parents could be prosecuted and even jailed for non-payment.

What do you think? Does your school already do this? Is it a constructively tough approach to persistent lateness, or a wild overreaction - or something else?

Would be great to hear what you think.

Thanks
MNHQ

Absence rates for primary schools in England (2011-12) 5.1%
Absence rates for primary schools in scotland ( 2012-13) 5.1%

These are the most up to date government figures I can find . They exclude special schools ( though of course most Sn kids are in mainstream )

We have children being allocated schools miles away from their homes against parental wishes due to shortages of school places and faith schools. It would be unreasonable to fine those parents for unpredictable traffic on a journey they didn't choose to be making.

I think this is a terrible idea. Certainly it would be at either of my son's schools.

Ds1's school has an enormous catchment area (several local authorities, one of which covers a very large area). If the students are late it is almost always because of problems with the public transport that they (almost) all use to get there. You'd simply be punishing the pupils with the least reliable bus or train service.

DS2's school seems to start and finish at erratic times. Officially, it starts at 8.50 and finishes at 3.10. However, they take the children and send them out anything up to 10 minutes early (there's no pattern, and it has nothing to do with the weather). This means that you can arrive at school at 8.45 and feel like you are late, when you absolutely are not. Given this, I'm not convinced the fines would even be fair.

To be honest, it sounds like exactly the sort of policy that will be hugely popular with the type of shy or not so shy Tory daily mail reader who loves to look down on everyone else and doesn't care about what's actually going on. So we should expect it to be introduced as government policy for all schools in England very soon.

I'm lucky that my kids have never ever been late for school.

But they would have been on many occasions if I hadn't had the support of local friends/ other school mums who I can call on in an emergency. I'm lucky enough to live on the main route to school so there is always someone I can grab to help out.

Examples I can think of are :

DS9 having a meltdown and refusing to leave the house. He is too big for me to physically drag to school. Another parent passing by my house took my DD to school while DH and I carried DS kicking and screaming to the car and straight into the welfare officer's room. ( if DH not been home I don't know what we would have done)

DD vomiting all over the place just as we were about to leave. Again a passing friend took DS in for me while I dealt with DD.

Exploding nappies as we were just about to leave for school.

Scooting accident on the way to school.

Man collapses in street right in front of me on way to school.

Inconsiderate driver soaks DD from head to toe while we wait to cross the road on the way to school after a rain storm. Have to go home to change DD and wizz her back to school in the car while another parent takes DD the rest of the way for me.

Snow too deep to push DD's buggy through. We had a week of that a few years back. Luckily I had a neighbour who agreed to look after DF while I walked DS to school.

I'm sure I could think of loads more examples!

I'm now sure fines are a good idea!

Not sure! Sorry

I would be interested to hear what teachers think.
I am a teacher and last year was working in a rubbish chaotic school where there was persistent lateness and no registration period before first lesson. So the latecomers came into class disrupting others who were already on with tasks, and these then needed to be re-explained to the latecomers. There was no saction other than the DC having to stay in at break to make up the minutes lost - so the teacher is punished (by losing break) while the parents continue to sit in front of Jeremy Kyle - no inconvenience for them.
Does DC no favours when excuses are made for disorganised parents 'too poor to pay the fine' - those are the DC who most need rules and boundaries and to understand that in a society everyone needs to follow the rules or pay the consequences.
And when it is GCSE time, those same kids will still arrive late, and not be allowed to take the exams - so seriously losing out ( and penalising the teachers even further...)

Sometimes really seems that Mumsnetters live in a bubble with no understanding of the realities of low life.

Terrible idea.

I think previous posters have pretty much covered all the unfairness and unintended consequences.

Sometimes it's just not possible to control other people's behaviour, no matter how punitive you are.

MrsUltra you are the kind of judgmental teacher I used to actually fear when my first child was being diagnosed with autism. We had a LOT of problems and disruption at school but no diagnosis for a year or two. We were talked down to often and felt very judged, no doubt they thought WE were "low life".

So mrsUltra, you'd like to see children who already have little chance of a decent education or chance of a fulfilling job in layer life, financially deprived as well as educationally and socially deprived? well aren't you lovely

or do you just continue to judge them when the arrive late and hungry?

A meeting with the school to
Understand why would make sense. What if there are genuine difficulties? Why alienate people. Why make people call in sick instead?
I do have a SAHM friend who was always late as they just don't get up in time and get organised. She got hauled in to discuss it with the head and was mortified. She has improved. I meanwhile get my two to breakfast club on time as I have to get to work !!

Bad idea. Firstly they can already fine because lateness is recorded as absence. Secondly it's mainly going to affect those struggling already.
Encouraging kids to be on time, eg with a nice chatty registration period, posters by kids saying how they don't like being late/arw happy when they're on time, sessions for parents with tea and biscuits at 9am, posters explaining how many hours of education your child is entitled to each year and how much you waste if child is 5 min late each day, etc.

Either way it won't be the parents that suffer. The kids are already disadvantaged by being late all the time, should they miss out on school trips and such because their parents are paying fines?

The problem is that there isn't really a way to penalise parents without it impacting on their children. Similarly if you were reliant on a lift into work every day and kept being late it wouldn't be the person who gave you a lift who got into trouble...

MrsUltra - I see you don't read very carefully, given that a pp has already given the example of Scotland earlier in the thread.

Vengeful judgmental types are just what small children need.

You know, I'm pretty sure Jeremy Kyle isn't actually on at the relevant time in the morning. Don't let that stop you judging and dismissing people.

DS1 went to a school with a very deprived catchment at one point and there were many chaotic families. But, you know what, the school, recognised that the parents involved had serious problems (addiction, mental health, various other things) and tried to work with them to help their children. Having to work with the children and families that you actually get (rather than your idea class full of 'ideal' families who never have any problems) is not 'punishing the teacher'; it's just what teaching is.

I'd like to know if there's a plan to fine the schools that close at lunchtime at the end of every term/half term rather than running a full school day (not INSET). No? Thought not.

I'm in two minds. I have one friend who is always late, she really does rush down the road as her little baby will do a pooh just as she is ready to take her big girl to school. Apart from that she is a great parent and gets involved with school.
I notice some others late a lot, they are mothers I like and know that one is doing a masters and is shattered, the other is working full time, the third is always put upon by her in laws to clean their house as well as her own. She is really stretched and mother to three.

In their cases ( this is all in one of my childs class) it would just add to their burden.
I remember in the days with my eldest as a single mum, dropping my boy off. Early for school but late for work, until I could afford a car but that took two years.

mrs Ultra your opinion is repugnant .
'lowlife' really?

MrsUltra...my DD is one of those persistently late teenagers.

She's 15, we live approximately a 5 minute walk from school, she's late at least 3 times a week.

I wake her up in plenty of time, I chivvy her along constantly, I just can't actually make her leave any earlier.

I've tried punishments and rewards, consistently for long periods of time, I've tried relying on the natural consequences of her getting into trouble at school for it, nothing makes any difference.

I can if I spend 20 minutes in a full on argument which becomes very heated and if I then drive her the three streets get her there 5 minutes less late for school, not on time, but less late. But, neither of us is then in the best frame of mind starting the day.

I could possibly physically overpower her and drag her out of the house before she's decided she's ready - but not without a fight and I really don't think that's an amazing idea to try longterm.

There are no issues at school that I can find out about, she has friends, she's attaining well, it's not full on school refusal and I can't seem to find any reason for it.

I get no help or support from school with it, despite approaching them and repeated letters home to me about it.

I'm at the point where after 2 long years of trying - I've given up, it's her attendance record, I've tried everything I can think of, she'll just have to deal with any longterm consequences.

I trained as a teacher, I've been involved in education for years, I know full well how disruptive it can be both for the school and for her education but there's is literally nothing more I can do.

How would fining me help?

tabulahrasa
Your DD is disrupting the learning of others, so it is not just her own education that is suffering (and I would have thought as a parent you might have some concern about that) but it is not okay that others also suffer.
You are the parent - you are responsible for her - you need to seek solutions - not just give up and let her ruin her own, and more importantly others' lives.
To simply say you can do nothing about it and let it continue is one the reasons why education is in such a mess, and teachers are leaving in droves.

I think it is a good idea for persistent latecomers. There are some people who simply can't be arsed to get out of bed early enough to sort their child out in time for school. I know this by talking to friends/hearing others at the school gate.

Obviously there should be allowances made for SN, or if there are other circumstances like family illness, or family breakup that may affect things in the short term. and there should be a points system so that you are only fined if late on a regular basis, not just once or twice because the car broke down or the cat threw up on your uniform or whatever.

But for the people who are regularly late because they simply cant sort themselves out to arrive on time, then maybe a fine would work.

When I was a child, I was often late to school because my mum was out milking the cows. We lived a mile from school. She would rush in and drive us there and we would be late. Our teacher told us off, made us feel bad, and kept us in at breaktimes. It was totally out of MY control whether or not I was late, yet I was the one who was being punished day after day, not my mum!. If my mum had been threatened with a fine, we would have been there on time every day as she couldnt afford to pay a fine!

In the case of our school, they need to sort out the parking issues before they dare to bring in a fine. Parents will drive round and round looking for somewhere to park and then end up being late. Or again, maybe you could argue that they should just leave home earlier and park further away and walk to the school.

It is very disruptive when a child comes into school late and it can ruin the whole lesson for the rest of the class.

As an adult, I absolutely hate being late for anything, because as a child, we never got anywhere on time.

"Teachers are leaving in droves". Are you planning to be one of them? (fingers crossed)

I have problems with my dd16 too tabulahrasa, and live rurally with no car.

We are not 'lowlife' thank you mrsultra, at least we got a teacher's view and it is not hugely surprising.

Um, you're not teaching in London are you Ultra?

I think it's a great way to have the school register filled with one day authorised absences because 'My child was up all night with d&v'.

Who in their right mind would take their child into school at all if they were going to be fined? Far better to keep him at home and claim he was poorly.