MNHQ here: 'school gate' fines for being late to school - what do you think?

[RowanMumsnet]

Morning all

We're being asked for your views on a couple of press stories over recent days (here and here - ££) indicating that some schools are going to start fining the parents of children who are late to school more than ten times a term. The fines will be £60, doubling if they're not paid within 21 days, and ultimately (as with unauthorised term-time absences) parents could be prosecuted and even jailed for non-payment.

What do you think? Does your school already do this? Is it a constructively tough approach to persistent lateness, or a wild overreaction - or something else?

Would be great to hear what you think.

Thanks
MNHQ

Or we could treat with caution a letter to a newspaper five years ago citing figures that cannot be verified.

Tabula I did physically drag my son to his secondary school and handed him over to the head (as agreed) only to be phoned minutes later to be informed they had let him walk out before registration. This happened daily for two terms!

I do think that there is space for decent therapy and advocacy to try to get to the bottom of what is going on with kids/young people/teenagers not wanting to go to school...be it family therapy or personal counselling.

I think that there also needs to be an openness/willingness within the school to see and accept that there might be things that they can change to make it a more welcoming enviroment

mrz - she has as yet never missed a day of school that wasn't for a genuine approved by me reason, even though she's tried (that's how I know dragging her isn't as easy as it sounds) in the big picture I'm taking that as a win, lol.

I'd love to just solve it and have her be on time for school, it's a huge deal to me, but I've run out of ways to try and make her.

RonaldM my son was in therapy and the reasons were well documented it's didn't resolve a thing!

"Or we could treat with caution a letter to a newspaper five years ago citing figures that cannot be verified." mrz

Those figures are as good as anyone can get and the letter was written by a leading expert in the field, a woman with in depth knowledge who is, I am certain, just as convinced of what was written in that letter now as she was then.

But I digress.

Fining parents is, for many, just taking food off their children's tables. It still won't convince a child who is a school refuser to get in/get in on time. It won't make the buses run any more reliably or the traffic move any quicker.

Where would these fines be spent, anyway? On special facilities for the bullied? On school buses? On home to school transport?

Or on duck houses and refurbishing MP's swimming pools?

When I first got the letter from the school about this, my thought was..this contravenes the human rights act. Sure enough a couple of cases were brought.

apparently unsuccessful

'test case' which interestingly was dropped just before due in court
here

One of the first desires of the new government is (allegedly) to repeal this act.

I agree about the atmosphere of them and us (I have seen it from parent and staff side).

I live in an area where you are lucky to get a school, let alone a nearby one.

If what StaceyandTracey says is true, this policy is ineffective as a deterrent, though not apparently as a fundraiser.

This is not a new thing in my LA - arriving after register has closed (normally 30mins after registration time) counts the same as an absence, 10 in a term and you are liable for a fine.

We are not talking running late, or the occasional car won't start, missed the bus type disaster. We aren't even talking those families that cut it fine every morning and are often a few minutes late. We are talking regularly more than 30 minutes late arriving at school.

Our school work to support parents as best they can where there are known issues, it's the handful of CBA parents that risk getting fined. (This is primary, may be different at secondary)

Our school have only introduced fines this year, so we don't have full stats yet. Interestingly though, the experience of other local schools (who have been fining since the law came in) is that it makes little difference to term time holidays (people factor the potential fine into the cost of the holiday) but it has led to a big reduction in persistent lateness. That is a good thing for everyone in the school IMO, especially for the children who are no longer late.

Being "as good as you can get" is a pretty meaningless statement and any expert is only as good as their data.

My DH would be on time much more often if they fined 50p per minute (like the after-school club when parents are late collecting!). But that would be silly.
More seriously -- I think it would definitely damage the already-fraught home-school relationship, especially with families who are late 10 times a term. These, pretty much by definition, are the families where something is going on: school refusers, special needs, transport problems, siblings with special needs, otherwise disruptive or difficult home life etc. They are NOT the families that schools should be undermining their relationships with!
And (fully aware that I have not taught primary) -- does it matter that much? Could the day not be organised with some flexible time, eg DC reading their reading books, writing about their evening, whatever, so that DC arriving late know what to do and aren't disruptive? Surely settling DC in for the first 20 minutes of each day like that is an alternative solution. It could be giving some a chance to talk to the teacher or TA, DC reviewing work from yesterday/last week, making corrections to their work, completing their drawing or picture, etc. Wouldn't it just be better to construct an environment where it's not such a big problem if some DC come in a bit late? Tell the families 9am sharp; you'll just about always have everyone by 9:10.

Dreadful idea. I'm a late person for lots of reasons. Fines won't change that, I'll just be more skint and fucked off.

Typical of this government. Think money solves everything - either throw it at people who don't need it, or take it away from people who already have little. Chronic lateness at our school goes hand in hand with other issues in families. Fining those people is only going to exacerbate those problems.

Also: make school a well-funded and enjoyable place with happy, supported and supportive teachers and plenty of challenges for DC with all abilities to meet and excel at. Naturally this would cost money in the short term but even the economy needs a well-educated population to drive growth; I guess that's past the Tory time frame, and I'm not holding my breath...

Read up on the expert before you get too carried away, mrz.

I know there's more definite, recent evidence because I've read it but I can't find it atm. You might discover it in the course of reading up on the author of the letter.

Really bad idea. Penalising sometimes the most vulnerable. I spoke to a woman who was poor, single, who had a child being bullied by estate kids, another baby and getting fined by the school for being late. Shocking thing to do to people. Show some understanding and kindness instead.

"Typical of this government. Think money solves everything - either throw it at people who don't need it, or take it away from people who already have little"

This regime of fines was introduced under Tony Blair in 2003.

And then it's up to your local council when they impose fines. Not all do.

Sometimes I wait in the playground for the teachers to open the door. Usually they are on time but sometimes they are late. Sometimes they are late in the afternoon too. It's annoying because it is often cold and wet and I have better things to do

But it really has never occurred to me that I should fine them for these lapses... Until now..

There's a thought. Dd's class teachers are quite often a few minutes late coming out to get them from the playground in the morning and at least once a week bring them out at the end of the day up to ten minutes late too. All adds up doesn't it?

First thing I did Areyousure ... Still not convinced by data. It's a guess not an accurate figure.

I'm a teacher (primary). I don't think fines are the answer. However a persistently late child is annoying and disruptive, for the teacher, the other children and mostly for the poor child who is late - having to skulk through classroom to get to their place on the middle of the carpet, trying to put their coats/books/lunch away on the way without disturbing the lesson, having all the other children stare at them. Do the parents of that child even think about that side of I wonder?

I do not mean children who have special needs or transport issues. I am talking about the children who live five minutes walk from the school and their parents still can't be arsed get them there on time. I'm guessing because school is not a priority and by failing to get them there on time they are giving that message to their child loud and clear (this is primary I'm referring to - where children are solely reliant on parents to get them). I'm just ranting now, I would LOVE to hear a sensible solution to this problem though!

I agree fines will just increase absence.

The solution is surely to try and build a bridge with the parent and try and find out why the child is always late by getting them in for a chat. Fining creates animosity.

I have had periods when we've been late a few times a term, nowhere near the levels where this fine would apply. This was largely due to my depression and persistant insomnia. I found mornings very challenging indeed.

Just another stealth tax!

I am quite often one of those 'just on the bell' parents so many people on here have already complained about but fining parents who are doing their best is not the answer.

It's not a 'can't be arsed' problem as consistently suggested, it's just life! Traffic, lost shoes, a 6 year old sudden meltdown, an 18 month old refusing to bend into their car seat, nowhere to park near the school are all factors that come into play and sometimes null and void the leaving five mins earlier idea.

Often I am actually at the doors before the 9am bell but since every school is now Fort Knox, we can sometimes stand there for a few mins waiting to get buzzed in.

No doubt in my mind I'd phone mine in sick if there was a chance of a fine. The whole idea makes me feel even more berated by the system and not supported as a parent of 4 young children just trying my best.

F"@& right off is how I feel about the idea!

It would cost more to collect fines than any revenue it could generate (another reason why it's a silly idea) so definitely not a stealth tax.

'I do not mean children who have special needs or transport issues. I am talking about the children who live five minutes walk from the school and their parents still can't be arsed get them there on time. I'm guessing because school is not a priority and by failing to get them there on time they are giving that message to their child loud and clear'

How do you decide which children who live '5 walk minutes from the school' have SN and which do not? Teachers aren't qualified to decide and getting a diagnosis for SEN/SN takes time.

I don't see how it would work for secondary aged children when they're making their own way and responsible for their own lateness.