MNHQ here: 'school gate' fines for being late to school - what do you think?

[RowanMumsnet]

Morning all

We're being asked for your views on a couple of press stories over recent days (here and here - ££) indicating that some schools are going to start fining the parents of children who are late to school more than ten times a term. The fines will be £60, doubling if they're not paid within 21 days, and ultimately (as with unauthorised term-time absences) parents could be prosecuted and even jailed for non-payment.

What do you think? Does your school already do this? Is it a constructively tough approach to persistent lateness, or a wild overreaction - or something else?

Would be great to hear what you think.

Thanks
MNHQ

I know a number of schools that have tried this.
They felt It made a difference to a quite number who were previously always late rushing in and disturbing registration.
However, it was also noted that very occasionally parents turned back at the gate and went home when they realised they were late.
Not the desired affect.

Yes I'm waiting for mrs ultra

I'm very interested because social services don't know either how to make a teenagers do something they don't want to . I'm sure they will be fascinated to find out .

Oh yes, 5madthings, I'm waiting with bated breath. I'm intrigued to learn how to get a teen bigger than oneself out the door when they've had everything taken away from them and every punishment made to them and there's nothing else to threaten them with.

I expect Mrs Ultra will say it is because we are all 'lowlifes'.

Indeed

An all those parents whose kids are involved in crime, or drugs or misusing alcohol - they will be so delighted when they find out how they can stop that too

So spill the beans Mrs Ultra - what's the secret ?

MrsU please can you explain how to get my ASD teen into school every morning at 9.
I'd love to be able to get him into school and be able to work full time again.

I can't help but feel that this is consistent with an ever more adversarial relationship between schools and parents with each side seeing the other as a problem that needs to be managed.

In any case, the idea of fining latecomers will not help parents and schools work together which is the only way to achieve a good outcome for pupils.

Family liaison officers are the appropriate response to consistent lateness, not fines.

I don't think fines are the answer but how do people suggest solving the problem?

Well for ds1 a reliable bus service and he would be fine. The school had contacted the bus company and the council, as have parents to no avail.

Ds1 leaves at 7:30. 5 min walk to bus stop, same at other end to school. Bus journey should take 15 mins. He has to be at school for 8:40. And buses are supposed to be every 15 mins. So plenty of time allowed, but crap buses or road works or crazy traffic and he is screwed.

Re ds2, I have no idea. Do you have any magic suggestions for a child with asc who refuses to get out of bed/get dressed/leave the house? If he digs his heels in or goes into meltdown there is nothing I can do. The school themselves are currently signing him ad ill in the register whilst he stays home until they get a support plan in place, which they seem in no hurry to do.

But generally families need support, getting that is another matter and one that won't be helped by our new tory government.

Precisely MrZ
Really scary that people think parents 'giving up' is the 'answer'
So even if their own late DC are ok in their own exams never mind about those others who are disrupted

At primary school level I think this is mostly a good idea. I see the same parents slowly driving or walking their children to school every day as I leave. The school sends our constant reminders about timekeeping to no avail.

Obviously there will be exceptions days when something extraordinary prevents parents getting their children to school and these exceptional circumstances should be taken into account. In 5 years of primary school, we've manage to not be late and I am very disorganised.

I would disagree with the portrayal of parents who fail to get their children to school being under-pressure single parents with troublesome children. I'm reminded of a parent and child workshop the DCs had recently. Registration is 8.40 and workshop was scheduled for 8.50. DS's teacher asked parents to wait outside the external classroom door to wait for the 'usual stragglers'. We watched a slow steam of arrivals. The late arrivals chatted amongst themselves and let their DCs play outside until about 9.00 when I might have indicated to them that we were all waiting for them to get their DCs in the classroom. Were these late mums under-pressure mums? No, they were about half of the committee of the parents association who often tell me that they are members of the PA because (unlike me) they really care about their children's education.

Whilst I'd like to think that discretion might be used with these fines, I'm assuming that this would be for the benefit of the PA mums, lunchtime supervisors and parent reps rather than the hard pressed parents who had a genuine reason for lateness.

At secondary level I think it is up to the children to manage their arrival at school, especially in the later years.

Sorry MrsUltra but I'm a parent as well as a teacher and I don't know what the answer is and I find your "low life" comment inexcusable.

Oh you're back MrsUltra. Any ideas on how to handle the situation of a refusing to be on time child/teen, as requested earlier.

You're highly critical it seems yet offer nothing in the way of advice or solutions for a struggling family affected by these issues. Sadly I am not surprised, a sympathetic and proactive teacher is often the exception rather than the rule when things aren't going smoothly, I have found.

At primary school it is the responsibility of the parents to get their child to school on time. I don't agree with the scale of the fine but I wonder whether an awareness meeting - probably in a group so sense of peer pressure. I also wonder whether asking their dc to come in and tell their parents how it makes them feel. Maybe even ask classmates to come in and tell the parents the effect of their peers always being late. It would of course need to be managed by an adult but I think being told off by children would address some of the eratic parents. Maybe also encourage them to think about how they view timekeeping and problem solving. The option of a (smaller) fine could be used for anyone who refuses to attend the meeting. And repeat as often as required.

At secondary school it has to be the responsibility of the child and the sanctions should be against them not the parents. Exceptions should be made for those with relevant SN or medical needs.

My school hold "awareness" meetings which have no impact whatsoever on persistent latecomers.

Our breakfast and after school clubs are run off school site (used to be on site - long story) about half a mile walk and they use a walking bus step up to get the children to school.

Now I've never known the club to be late but there is the potential they could be. The club is the only one in the village. What time they leave and what happens on that route to school is totally out of my hands.

Would I be fined or the club? If there was the potential for them to be fined 15 to 20 times over ie each late child I'm not sure they would run any more.

And then I would be truly up the Creek without a paddle

so what happens when an appeal panel tells someone that they should stagger their kids being late because of it being a physical impossibility to get both there on time. possibly even three kids in three different schools at opposite points in town in rush hour traffic that's 180 pounds every time. and quire possible three kids going hungry or homeless as that's a huge chunk of money.

do fines get authorised even if professional bodies such as appeal panels have instructed a parent to do it

An awareness meeting wouldn't work with Mr Entitled I mentioned before. He is perfectly aware - he just doesn't give a shit.

Really scary that people think parents 'giving up' is the 'answer'

So what is the answer then, mrsu? I can think of various things to try which don't involve punishment (which isn't helping the child and is no more likely to help if the parent is punished) or physical force (which becomes untenable after about 5 or 6, anyway, once a child is too big to pick up and carry without risk of injury). The things I can think of don't involve fines, though and involve parents and school refusing children being supported by the school and other parties - and by supported I don't mean being told to get on with it or face court, which is the reality for some parents. Parents of school refusing children need skills that they may not necessarily have just because they gave birth (and may never have experienced through the luck of their own upbringing) and a relationship with the child that is possibly already seeming to be out of reach. Persistent refusers often need support from someone neutral as well as parents teachers etc.

If a parent has run out of the resources they have to hand with no positive effect and no support is offered from elsewhere, then what is there left to do?

You just keep on branding parents struggling with their children as lowlife, though, because that has a much better outcome.

I think a better option would be that late children are not accepted until afternoon registration. That would sort Mr Entitled because he needs to go to work!

Or make the process for being late really awkward and time consuming.

Or until 9.30am rather than the afternoon registration and after three occasions of being late you have to have a meeting with the head.

Mrsu, educate yourself.

The real reason why so many children are unwilling to go to school.

"Really scary that people think parents 'giving up' is the 'answer'"

Give me a better answer then... I'll happily try anything I haven't done already that doesn't involve physically forcing her.

Well the answer would probably be for bullying to be effectively dealt with. or sufficient support to help if pupils are struggling with work and it's sending them. into despair resulting in them not wanting to go.

by having teachers who are kind and approachable. or a wider range of subjects or activities to give everyone the chance to excel at something and feel good about themselves.

or to do something about the lack of school spaces or the standards of some schools so kids aren't wiped out travelling miles just to have a chance. exhaustion then making them difficult and not wanting to go to school.

but why do that when you can just fine someone