Armed Forces' proselytism in primary schools and the question of war

[kchornik]

In the wake of the atrocities committed in Gaza, it is more urgent than ever that our children learn that war is a very serious matter and should be avoided by all means.

This week I was shocked to hear a Flight Lieutenant using the words ‘cool’, ‘fun’ and ‘exciting’ to describe his job at an ‘Inspirational Talk’ for Year 6-children and their parents, organised by a primary school, which my daughter attended. The LT is currently a member of the Royal Air Force and has served in Iraq and Afghanistan, among other countries.

After showing a film depicting his spectacular pirouetting skills – sound-tracked with Hollywood-style, heroic music –, he recounted his career in the RAF, stressing how great his job was. He made no mention of his training or participation in armed conflicts – how odd, given that these are central remits of the armed forces! – and did not show any awareness or concerns about the humanitarian disasters caused by wars. Instead, he presented his job as a sporting adventure.

Worryingly, most children appeared positively impressed by his account. The youngsters’ questions all tallied with the partial and superficial information given to them. ‘What do you feel when you spin?’, asked one boy. In his answers, he even suggested that some could join the RAF. I wonder in what ways teachers believe these promotions might be ‘inspirational’.

Attending this talk made me realise the extent to which it is possible to manipulate and decontextualize issues of enormous implications, and that we have not sufficiently educated our children about the horrors of wars.

[identifying features removed by MNHQ]

Cruikshank you epitomises the saying a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You don’t appear to have discussed anything on this thread. You have not taken on-board anything other than those comments which have matched your own opinions which were, most likely, formed before reading a single comment on this thread. Hardly makes for a discussion.

Interesting that a Country you say could have won a world war single handed, is very prominent in the news at the moment. In light of what is currently being reported in the news, do you feel that now is a good time to disband the UK Military?

I would also be interested to hear whether you genuinely feel that, should any part of the UK be invaded by another country, we should either try to negotiate for them to leave or simply allow them to take control. If not what other course of action would you propose?

Perhaps you can enlighten us, again with your superior knowledge, how simply disbanding the UK military will bring about global peace and harmony, or even just peace and harmony in the UK? I personally don’t fancy living in a country that is a sitting duck for any other "Super Power’" to walk in and take control and enforce their own political regime, what’s more a regime that I had no opportunity to vote on.

You still haven’t told us (as you seem incapable of having a genuine discussion regarding the UK military) as to which jobs, if any, you feel should be discussed in schools. Perhaps you can enlighten us with your superior knowledge?

Cruikshank if you are so heavily against killing, how are you even alive. After all where do you think the food you eat comes from? Where do you think your possessions come from? Are you honestly telling us that not a single living thing has been killed in order to provide you with something you have needed/wanted?

MumTryingHerBest, you haven't changed your mind either. That's fine - I wouldn't expect you to. But nor would I berate you for not doing so.

Re the UK military, imo of course we need a defensive force, but for the past 30 years or so the only actions the UK military have been involved in are morally/politically bankrupt - again imo. I think there are very real questions that need to be addressed about our foreign policy and how it impacts on our position in the world. Just saying 'Oh well we need a military so who cares what the fuck they do as long as I'm not being ruled by Russia' is a half-arsed kind of stance, again imo. And, again imo, it's not being unpatriotic, or some kind of lentil-weaving hippy, to scrutinise what the armed forces under the control of politicians are getting up to - I'd rather have that attitude, than some sort of blanket 'Ooh, we mustn't criticise our brave boys or we'll all end up as communists' sort of stance. Ymmv and clearly does.

As for your 'point' about me having 'a little knowledge', I'm not sure what to say. I read the papers, I look at sources of info online, and as I'm not a politician then I'm not sure what more I could do in order to arrive at the conclusions I have drawn. Although I will say that, in terms of what you've written on here, I do seem to have a fair bit more knowledge than you about Iraq, so if I, with my little knowledge, am dangerous, then what are you, with your even smaller amount of knowledge?

Ffs. The Balkans - what should we have done there?

cruikshank I do seem to have a fair bit more knowledge than you about Iraq, so if I, with my little knowledge, am dangerous, then what are you, with your even smaller amount of knowledge? You make that claim based on what exactly? I've posted nothing about what exactly I do know.

cruikshank you haven't changed your mind either Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what I have not changed my mind about.

cruikshank - for the past 30 years or so the only actions the UK military have been involved in are morally/politically bankrupt Perhaps you, with your superior knowledge, have evidence to show that the UK Military have done non of the following in the last 30 years: "The work we do ranges from peacekeeping to providing humanitarian aid... to helping combat the international drugs trade.

I've posted nothing about what exactly I do know.

Then why are you posting at all?

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what I have not changed my mind about.

You haven't changed your stance on the military's activities, or on the military going into school. Neither have I changed my mind. The difference is that I didn't really expect you to.

If you have changed your mind, then fine, but I missed that bit.

"The work we do ranges from peacekeeping to providing humanitarian aid... to helping combat the international drugs trade.

And killing people. In large numbers. Civilians. You (or they) missed that bit off. And I don't see that our role re the international drugs trade is anything to write home about, given that even quite senior figures in British diplomacy think the entire shebang should be legalised anyway. The 'war on drugs' will I think in time be come to be seen as just as shameful as drone attacks.

cruikshank You haven't changed your stance on the military's activities, or on the military going into school. And my stance is what exactly?

To repeat, you have made the claim that for the past 30 years or so the only actions the UK military have been involved in are morally/politically bankrupt Perhaps you, with your superior knowledge, have evidence to show that the UK Military have done non of the following in the last 30 years: "The work we do ranges from peacekeeping to providing humanitarian aid... to helping combat the international drugs trade.

The problem is, I can't really change my mind when there has been nothing presented to entice me to do so. Feel free to provide some actual facts that demonstrate the the primary role of the UK Military and every employee therein is to kill people.

cruikshank Then why are you posting at all? Are you saying that the OP should not have posted on this thread as they have not posted about Iraq either.

No, I'm just saying it's a little bizarre for you to sit there and attack me for not knowing what you know when you haven't told me what you know.

cruikshank No, I'm just saying it's a little bizarre for you to sit there and attack me I didn't attack you, you made a claim and I asked you to back it up.

I'm not really out to change your mind, tbh, I'm just putting my views across. You can take it or leave it. Isn't that what everyone does on the internet? I honestly don't get personally offended, as you have done about me, about the fact that we don't agree. There are loads of people out there who disagree with me - you're just one of them, and as you're not anyone I'm that bothered about, that's fine. Cameron et al would probably disagree with me as well, were I to talk to them. Sure, we can debate etc, but does a debate have to lead to minds being changed in order for it to be 'allowed' for people to express an opposing view?

What claim? You're talking in circles now.

If it's that I have more knowledge about Iraq than you, then I'll back that up by you sounding throughout this thread that you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about on the subject - you don't appear to have heard of any of the body count methods or even the names of the organisations that employed said methods etc etc. If you're saying now that secretly you had lots of knowledge but you chose not to share it with me - how am I supposed to know that? It's a discussion board - I don't know you - the only things I know about you are what you choose to tell me. So, ok, if I'm wrong and you really are an expert on Iraq, then I'm sorry that I didn't realise that but I don't see how I could.

As an aside, this conversation is getting very weird.

just as you are free to mither on about how killing people brings freedom

[puzzled] Who said that?

Cruick - three days ago you were asked what lines of work you would approve of, but you haven't give us a clue yet.

drums fingers

Your words, not mine:

If it had not been for our wonderful armed forces, we would not now be fortunate enough to live in the democratic country that we do.

Re jobs, I approve of pretty much any job that doesn't involve killing people.

cruikshank you sounding throughout this thread that you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about on the subject could that be because I didn't talk about the Iraq? If you are under the impression that I did perhaps you can highlight what it was that I said specifically about Iraq.

Why? Has your scroll wheel stopped working?

I don't remember every single thing you've said, it's true, although your 'lol' about 600,00+ dead civilians does stick in my mind.

cruikshank the 'lol' was not with regards to the 600,00+ dead civilians. Perhaps if you had read past that point you will have noticed me confirming that.

Yet again, you have put words into my mouth. The armed forces are involved in so much more than "killing" and "bombing". They are engaged in peace-keeping, building schools and hospitals, helping people in war-torn countries generally. You have a very one-sided view of it all - I wonder where it came from?

So the Palestinians are being bombed to oblivion at the moment. Do you accept that is just, or if it were you, would you wish to fight back to protect yourself?

And from Mum's fairly extensive list of alternative jobs, all of which you objected to, which of those involves killing people? Yet another misinterpretation.

If you and your family were being attacked in your home, would you simply allow it, or would you try to defend yourselves?

I do find your viewpoints rather naïve. No-one (sensible) wants war, or killing - in an ideal world we would all live in peace and harmony and skip around picking buttercups. Unfortunately this will never be possible.

all of which you objected to

Err, I was being flippant there. I could see the point she was trying to hammer home, and thought I would treat it with the contempt it deserved. That's why I put a hmm face.

I don't know why the pair of you are so set on quizzing me on my views, other than to try and make out that I don't really think what I think and that actually I agree with you and all the other killer-supporters out there, which I don't, so you might as well stop now.

cruikshank I don't know why the pair of you are so set on quizzing me on my views but I thought this was a discussion thread. Are questions not allowed in a discussion?