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Primary education

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Original poster

'we said thanks to God today mummy!' Really??

332 replies

unexpectediteminbaggingarea · 22/10/2012 17:55

Apparently a 'special lady' came and told my son and his class that God gave them a special gift so they should all say thank you to him. And they did.

Does this kind of shit go on everywhere? It's not a church school. I am an athiest. My son, aged 4, is now apparently not. He says that, thinking about it, he now thinks God is real and the reason you can't see him is because he 'lives in a different country, maybe London'.

I'm actually quite pissed off about it (not the London bit, that was funny), but if it's what happens everywhere or is some kind of statutory thing I suppose I'll have to suck it up. If it's not I may write to the head.

Although I do think more time on geography and less time on God might be better for DS Grin .

OP posts:
tiggytape · 23/10/2012 13:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

aufaniae · 23/10/2012 13:30

The school locally which has a loose interpretation of the requirement is graded "outstanding".

aufaniae · 23/10/2012 13:32

Sorry, I wasn't trying to disagree with you, I imagine you're right, they are leaving themselves open to criticism.

But just to say that they don't necessarily lose out because of it.

I wonder if atheist OFSTED inspectors interpret the requirement loosely too?

tiggytape · 23/10/2012 13:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheMightyMojoceratops · 23/10/2012 14:12

I've started that thread in AIBU, just for you Grimma. Wink

I can't remember if it's bad form to link, if that makes it a thread about a thread, or not... it's in AIBU anyway.

take3 · 23/10/2012 14:32

I don't see why this situation (OP) should be so worrying. If atheism makes so much sense then why worry? Think about it... what you want is a neutral school.... one where no faith is proclaimed... but is this really neutral? Surely nothing is not neutral... nothing is atheism and then by doing nothing you are promoting atheism in that school. There is no neutral ground.

strandednomore · 23/10/2012 14:35

I totally agree with you OP it is totally ridiculous and I am frankly fed up of it! Last year, my dd1 came back with a piece of work about how god created the world in 7 days Hmm She was 6 years old. Luckily she realises it's all tosh - her younger sister though is soaking it up. We just do a lot of work on them at home, which I would rather we didn't have to do - I would prefer they makie their own minds up once they are old enough to understand all the facts.
At some point I will read all the messages in this thread!

Wellthen · 23/10/2012 14:41

Aren't there about 3 of these threads now?

I lose interest really when someone points out that it is your right to take your children out and then says 'but I dont want to do that'. Well then isnt it kinda tough? State education provides for both religious and non-religious children, you are chosing not to take your children out. And please dont tell me they will be singled out - I went to school with quite a few brethren children and it took me about 3 years of being in their class to realise they didnt go to assembly. I thought nothing of it. They also weren't allowed to watch TV which, in those days when the TV was wheeled in once a week was not too bad. Now it would be almost impossible and I think the local brethren families now educate at home because of the advances of classroom technology.

Christians do not have the option to take their children out of lessons on the big bang, evolution, cave men, contraception, divorce etc etc. (Which I believe is absolutely right) And yet you're the injured party?

headinhands · 23/10/2012 14:43

It's about facts and reality take. It's about school peddling myths as fact. You don't mind schools teaching things for which there is no evidence?

Tanith · 23/10/2012 14:49

SoggyMoggy raises an interesting point.

In the US, religious worship is illegal, yet it is one of the most fundamental of countries. Could it be that, by banning religion, the State has actually made it more desirable?

DuelingFanjo · 23/10/2012 14:54

"Surely nothing is not neutral... nothing is atheism and then by doing nothing you are promoting atheism in that school. There is no neutral ground"

You are suggesting that if you're not religious then you must be an Atheist and this is a pet hate of mine. You are also suggesting that if you are Athiest then you must be pushing a belief system.

  1. Atheism isn't a belief system
  2. Not everyone without religion would label themselves as an Atheist

The neutral ground is actually the state every person is born into - that is ... Without religion.

My son (like me) is without religion. He has not had to reject anything because he has been given nothing to reject. At some point in his life I am supposed to just accept that someone will try to inject religion into this 'nothing' and at that pont the onus is on me to tell him why we don't believe. Many people don't want to have to deal with that irritation, of having to teach a child to reject something they have been told is true in school by teachers.

Why can't the default be the neutral 'without religion' ground instead of either being religious or Atheist?

DuelingFanjo · 23/10/2012 14:55

"Last year, my dd1 came back with a piece of work about how god created the world in 7 days She was 6 years old"

Stranded, when/how was she given this work? If it wasn't part of the collective worship (Assemblies) then does this mean they were actively teaching this in a lesson?

aufaniae · 23/10/2012 15:39

"I lose interest really when someone points out that it is your right to take your children out and then says 'but I dont want to do that'. Well then isnt it kinda tough?"

I think it's terribly unfair on the children to bear the brunt of bad policy making by the adults.

Excluding children is not a decent solution IMO.

GrimmaTheNome · 23/10/2012 15:59

State education provides for both religious and non-religious children

yes - but religious children are of many different creeds nowadays, the 'broadly christian' worship simply doesn't work any more as a default. Of course some schools have explict permission to make their worship Islamic, if they are in a majority muslim area, or multi-faith in ethnically diverse regions.

Not having worship in schools doesn't deny worship to 'religious' children (by which I take it you mean children born into religious families) - they can go to Sunday school, Koran school on a Friday evening, pray at home, whatever. Another option which might be considered is to have worship available as an opt-in activity - as sort of happens at many secondary schools where the assemblies sensibly don't try to impose worship on children old enough to know their own minds, but then there's a CU for those that want it. (this was what happened 30+ years ago in my own school and happens now in DDs)

seeker · 23/10/2012 16:03

"Christians do not have the option to take their children out of lessons on the big bang, evolution, cave men, contraception, divorce etc etc. (Which I believe is absolutely right) And yet you're the injured party?"

But Christian children are not being made tonuse contraception or get divorced. They a being taught about them. That's whati want to happen to my children with regards to religion. I want them to be taunt about it, not taught to do it.

Wallison · 23/10/2012 16:07

I think it's terribly unfair on the children to bear the brunt of bad policy making by the adults.

Excluding children is not a decent solution IMO.

I agree. Assemblies are not just about religion - they are also a time when children get to hear about what is happening throughout the school, about what other children are up to. They get little awards and certificates and trophies and stickers etc - it's not right that any child be excluded from all of that because of this requirement.

catkind · 23/10/2012 16:08

Nothing isn't atheism. Saying "there is no god" or something of that kind is atheism.

Like not serving my guests meat doesn't mean either that I'm a vegetarian or I'm promoting vegetarianism. It just means chickpea curry was on the menu todayWink
I would like my children to go to a school where they don't have to be taken out of assemblies because I think assemblies are an important part of school community life and I don't want them to feel left out. And there are lots of useful moral things that could be taught, discussed, thought about in asssemblies, there's no need to bring god or praying into it.

catkind · 23/10/2012 16:09

as usual too slow and x-posted with people who've said it better!

seeker · 23/10/2012 16:12

Regqrdlessnof anything else, it is just bizarre that there is a compulsory taxpayer funded service that you have to be a nominal Christian to fully participate in! Just bizarre. Imagine if the same ruling was applied to a hospital, or streetlights. Or bin collection.

GrimmaTheNome · 23/10/2012 16:23

Exactly, seeker - the science and citizenship lessons covering those issues are analagous to RE, which just about everyone supports - learning about these things.

DuelingFanjo · 23/10/2012 16:38

To add, there are many horrible things about the Christian belief that I would prefer my DS not be told as fact, the crucifiction for one.

I also don't want him to be taught to pray, to say the words of the lords prayer etc.

radicalsubstitution · 23/10/2012 16:40

To put another view on it, I personally do not think that an enforced broadly Christian act of daily worship is appropriate for community state schools.

I am a Christian, and am raising my children in accordance with my beliefs. My children are free to receive religious instruction in my chosen church (CofE) and by myself and my husband. The idea that 'Christians believe this' is not true, as many Christians do not always believe that everything in the Bible is relevant or prescriptive (or even literally accurate). There are churches that I would never take my children to, as I don't believe in their fundamentalist messages.

I fully accept that atheists, and people of other faiths, are not given this right by the current arrangements regarding collective worship. Children are taught to listen to, and believe, their teachers as educators. Children have a right, under the UN convention on the rights of the child (can't remember the article) to be raised in the relgion of their families, and I'm not sure that this is compatible with acts of collective worship that only the headteacher and governing body of the school have the authority over the Christian content of.

Saying this, I am a little saddened by some of the wording of the posts on this, and other, threads. Using the words 'shit', 'fairy stories', 'myths' etc to describe other people's beliefs is unnecessary. LIkewise, likening a belief in God to a belief in Voldemort (or any other known fictional character) is unnecessary and does little to strengthen your arguments. Whilst atheists may believe that God is fictional, please respect the fact that Christians, and others, do not believe that.

I'm not posting on this thread again.

DuelingFanjo · 23/10/2012 16:53

I think when the OP called it 'this kind of shit' she meant 'this kind of thing happening' rather than calling Christianity shit. I called the act of feeding children fairytales and lies 'shitty'.
I DO believe that God creating the world and Jesus turning water into wine etc are fairy tales. I DO think that they are un-truths I just don't know what better way to explain it.
When you have no religion or do not believe in the religious stuff that and then someone else starts telling your children these tales as if they are fact then it does feel a bit shit.

HoratiaWinwood · 23/10/2012 17:13

Using the phrase "fairy stories" doesn't acknowledge the importance of those stories to the relevant believers, though.

Saying "just a story" doesn't offend me in the way that "fairy story" or "load of rubbish" would, because at face value it is a story, and to you it is nothing else. To me it is a special story of crucial significance.

And I don't want school presenting it to the DCs in some ham-fisted way out of sheer obligation and box-ticking.

GrimmaTheNome · 23/10/2012 17:16

You do have to be so careful on this sort of thread not to upset people gratuitously by language which may or may not be read in context.

I try to avoid derogatory terms but will make no apology if I use the term 'myth' in relation to OT stories such as in Genesis - my brand of mainstream Christian upbringing was quite clear that the Garden of Eden was a creation myth. You can't respect everyones beliefs on that one!