'we said thanks to God today mummy!' Really??

[unexpectediteminbaggingarea]

Apparently a 'special lady' came and told my son and his class that God gave them a special gift so they should all say thank you to him. And they did.

Does this kind of shit go on everywhere? It's not a church school. I am an athiest. My son, aged 4, is now apparently not. He says that, thinking about it, he now thinks God is real and the reason you can't see him is because he 'lives in a different country, maybe London'.

I'm actually quite pissed off about it (not the London bit, that was funny), but if it's what happens everywhere or is some kind of statutory thing I suppose I'll have to suck it up. If it's not I may write to the head.

Although I do think more time on geography and less time on God might be better for DS .

"Cadbury and Percy Pig advent calendars for all of your children and obsessive worship of the idol of materialism?"

Why do you assume that a non-Christian/religious Christmas involves the worship of materialism?

That would be like me assuming all Christians spend Christmas in church and doing good works for poorer families. Or assuming that all Christian children are told that there is no such thing as father Christmas.

marriedinwhite the early Christians did not celebrate Jesus's birthday on the 25th December.

December 25th was the celebrated birthday of Mithra, a profit who pre-dates Christ. It was the Romans who decided Christmas should be celebrated on December 25th, it was a political manoeuvre, designed to make it easy for the followers of Mithra to convert to Christianity. Mithraism was the main religion in Persia and Rome, and much of the Roman army were followers of Mithra, it was a clever move. So, the origins of Christmas actually have little to do with Christ. They also changed the day of worship from Saturday (the Sabbath - the bible is quite specific on this) to Sunday, the day of worship for the sun-god mithras.

Considering Christianity's liberal borrowing from other religions (e.g. Easter also, as mentioned upthread), I have no qualms in borrowing the bits I like from Christmas and co-opting them into my family's own - atheist - traditions.

I see duelling so it's OK to criticise the beliefs of others but not OK if the way you do things is criticised then.

Actually what gets my goat are the parents who send their children to cofe schools because of good results and then complain that RE is taught very vociferously.

I do agree that many "festivals" have their roots in paganism grimma but thought the point was worth making in that if there was no Jesus, Christmas is a bit defunct - and it was made tongue in cheek. Especially noting the very worthy advent calendar thread that is also going on.

When I was at school in RE we learnt about the beliefs of christians, buddhists, hindus, muslims, judaism, catholocism, atheism, orthodoxy and the plight of those in the then communist swathes of Europe who had had the right to worship removed by those in authority. I attended a school which was not a church school (it is now) but which had a very strong christian ethos. Oddly we did not take RE O'Level because the Head didn't think it was rigorously academic enough. I was not taught just about christianity but I was taught RE by a lady who had been a missionary in China as well as a headmistress and she had a very broad understanding of life which I valued as I got older and value even more now as a mature woman who did not as a teenager realise just how rich her life had been.

That is what I want for my children and that is what is provided at their independent schools, where RE is a compulsory GCSE and where both have faith as their foundation. One is Church of England the other Roman Catholic - at present neither of my children believe, as is their right, and I didn't at their age. I did however feel as an adult that I had enough information to make a reasoned decision but it was not until I was married that the spirituality of the ceremony struck me utterly and I knew at that point that my vows were made before God. After that I started attending church. At that time it would not have bothered me if we had married in a civil ceremony - it was my dh who wanted a church service and I am glad he did because it helped me discover my spirituality and God and a little more about love.

Mithra incidentally is an interesting character. He pre-dates Christ, and has a number of similarities:

• Mithras had 12 disciples
• Hundreds of years before Jesus, according to the Mithraic religion, three Wise Men of Persia came to visit the baby savior-god Mithra, bring him gifts of gold, myrrh and frankincense
• According to Mithraism, before Mithra died on a cross, he celebrated a ?Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac.
• After the death of Mithra, his body was laid to rest in a rock tomb.
• Mithra ascended into heaven during the spring equinox (the time when the sun crosses the equator making night and day of equal length).
• he was a son of a god, born of a virg

For more see this page and this page

marriedinwhite you would do well to learn a little of the historical context of how Christian festivals - and indeed many of the myths you associate with Christianity - came into being, before implying that there's something wrong with borrowing traditions from cultures other than your own.

Has been happening since the dawn of time, and most especially by Christianity!

I get really pissed off about all the Godishness in schools too, but it seems unavoidable. They even have some happy clappy twats all high on Alpha going round to my son's school doing special assemblies (I had no idea this went on until I heard about it from other parents - I mean, the school didn't even tell us). Before I got faced with all of this, and the praying in assemblies (wtf? in a non-faith school?) I was of a mind that it was important to let him come to his own conclusion about religion. But the religious types at his school don't seem to agree with me, so I ended up telling him flat out that people started believing in religion because they didn't have science to explain things for them, that it's just nice stories and none of it is true. There are some nice books for kids out there that explain evolution and stuff in child-friendly terms, if you think that would help. I really liked both Earth Story and Life Story by Eric Madden.

thought the point was worth making in that if there was no Jesus, Christmas is a bit defunct
not at all, no more than saying easter is defunct without oestre . Point being, lots of cultures have winter and spring festivals.

Actually what gets my goat are the parents who send their children to cofe schools because of good results and then complain that RE is taught very vociferously
This thread is about the imposition of worship in non-faith school. Different entirely.

I see duelling so it's OK to criticise the beliefs of others but not OK if the way you do things is criticised then.
eh? I thought her point was that you were making broad and shallow mistaken assumptions about how other people did things.

aufanie where precisely have I implied there is anything wrong in borrowing traditions from other cultures and from where do you get the impression that I know nothing of history? I disagree with your points of view on many things but I do try not to be nakedly rude.

Nobody on this thread then will be celebrating Christmas or Easter I take it;

Ermm???? Are you aware of the origins of either of those feasts? I'll give you a clue - they're not Christian celebrations.

"I see duelling so it's OK to criticise the beliefs of others but not OK if the way you do things is criticised then."

no, you are misunderstanding. You are making assumptions about how non-christians celebrate Christmas. Saying they are just teaching their children to be materialistic. It's too simple to assume this kind of thing and as I was saying it would be just as bad if I assumed things about the way Christians celebrate.

"Actually what gets my goat are the parents who send their children to cofe schools because of good results and then complain that RE is taught very vociferously"

There are many parents who won't ever do this and yet their children will still have to take part in daily acts of worship unless the parents remove them from assemblies. This is not a fair default position.

My issue is that there is an overwhelming attitude from some christians that they are somehow better than atheists.

I am an atheist, but my values are very similar to those of christisns. In some cases I come across people who claim to be christian yet are very judgemental and uncaring.

I am not immoral because I do not believe in God or Jesus. But I respect that others do. I just do not wish to have it all preached at me.

And your materialistic comment married wasnt taken as tongue in cheek. It was taken as you setting yourself as morally better than me.

marriedinwhite

"where precisely have I implied there is anything wrong in borrowing traditions from other cultures"

here:

"Nobody on this thread then will be celebrating Christmas or Easter I take it; or if they do will do so in a materialistic context. Cadbury and Percy Pig advent calendars for all of your children and obsessive worship of the idol of materialism?"

Speaking of materialism, it's difficult to think of a more materialistic organisation than, say, the Catholic Church. All of those fancy gee-gaws don't buy themselves.

:o wallison. Sorry but had to laugh.

Hello, thanks for all your replies. To clarify:

It was assembly. The children were encouraged to close their eyes and say thank you to God.

I have no qualms about my children being educated about different religions and what they believe. That is RE, no? I have a problem with my child being told to pray.

I was brought up as a Christian, went to church weekly, went to CofE school and attended church until my second year of university. I am well aware of what being a christian is and what the church teaches. I do find that often athiest parents are the ones who are most keen to allow their children to make their own choices, whereas christian children (and I was one) are told that God made the world and them and that is fact. End of. I'm sure that this isn't always the case, merely my observation.

We as a family have always talked about how different people believe different things. DS is interested in how the world was made and where people go when they die. I have said to him that I believe in what can be proven scientifically and then I explain how scientists think the world was made. I have said that nobody knows where you go when you die because once someone's dead they can't talk about it any more. My mum has told DS that she believes that God made the world and when you die you go to heaven if you've been good. I'm sure if he had a muslim friend that friend would give his interpretation of creation. That is fine. I don't (unlike many religious parents I know) think my children should not be exposed to lots of different opinions.

We celebrate festivals, yes so we will celebrate Christmas. If we lived in India we would celebrate Diwali. We like taking part. There may well be a peppa pig and spiderman calendar in our house, I'm not sure why that's so problematic. Whoever scoffed at cadbury calendars - weren't the cadbury family super strong christans, Quakers who sold chocolate as an alternative to alcohol?
We will also talk about giving, sharing, looking after each other and giving a present to a child who doesn't have enough, as we always do at christmas. We will talk about the story of christmas and why we celebrate it. I will say that I think it is just a story but some people think it really happened.

headinhands could you film the one where a woman gets stoned to death for being adulterous? I reckon the kids would love that. Or where Lot offers his daughter up to be raped so he can be spared?

I sent my son to a non-church school because I don't want him indoctrinated at the age of 4, and being told at an impressionable age by an adult they trust to close their eyes and pray to God is indoctrination.

"being told at an impressionable age by an adult they trust to close their eyes and pray to God is indoctrination."

Absolutely.

What surprises me is that so few parents seem aware of this compulsory worship element.

It surprises me too. If they went to school in the UK they must have had it-what makes them think it changed? Or was it the fact that they were at a church school and think it was different for those of us who were not?
It is everywhere in literature-a simple book like Please Mrs Butler by the Ahlbergs makes it plain that all school DCs have common experiences.

Thanks wannabe.

I agree that it's indoctrination as well. And I am one of those parents who didn't realise just exactly what went on - I was at a Catholic school myself, so didn't know what a supposedly non-faith school was like. Sure, I knew they'd be learning about different religions, but I kind-of assumed that it would be done in a 'cultural awareness' kind of way, rather than having evangelicals leaping around the place and telling them that they'll always have Jesus on their side and he is their best friend etc.

There are no non-religious state schools unless you find one that breaks the law requiring them to undertake religious worship every day with the children.

But some schools will interpret this in a less annoying way. For instance, my daughter's school asks people to pray to whichever god they believe in and explicitly adds 'and if you don't have a god then just listen quietly and think about the words of the prayer' which seems an entirely acceptable solution to me when eg praying at Harvest Festival for those less fortunate than we are.

Well, there you are. Some schools totally flout the law and get away with it, it seems. So be heartened, fellow atheists - not all schools are trying to indoctrinate children!

It would be ridiculous for this school (and many others) to disregard the existence of other gods and insist on praying to Jesus, as a large majority of the children who actively follow a religion (I discount weddings and funerals type Christians) are followers of faiths other than Christianity.

We get this also. Just tell them the truth - that this is what some people believe, and that some people don't...and that if you lived in a different part of the world you'd have 'a different God'. My kids have now gathered that, like 'Hansel & gretell' or 'The Three Pigs' - its just a 'folk tale'. Thier words - 5 & 7.

"It surprises me too. If they went to school in the UK they must have had it-what makes them think it changed?"

That's certainly not everyone's experience.

My primary school for example (in inner London, 1980s) never did religious worship. We did learn about various religions, we sang Christmas carols, and did a nativity every so often (definitely not every year) but that's as far as it went. We also celebrated other festivals (e.g. I remember Diwali being popular). At secondary school (90s), again absolutely no religious content in assemblies or elsewhere.

We never sung hymns, said prayers or were encouraged to believe in god in any way. They may have been flouting the law, but that was typical for many schools then AFAIK.

These days there are many schools which interpret the requirement loosely. At one of the primary schools I've visited for DS, I asked them what they actually do in assemblies for the "worship" requirement. The gave an example: they might ask the children have quiet time and think of wonder and awe (concepts they've discussed previously). There is absolutely no explicit reference to a god or praying.

One of the reasons I don't like the other school down the road is it has a very Christian head and, from what I've heard, might as well be a church school. They sing hymns and says prayers in assembly for example.

Two schools, same town, same laws, very different realities for the pupils.

my parents removed me from assemblies when I was a child. I suppose I wasn't aware it happened in all schools. I will be considering doing the same for my son but the point is that this shouldn't be the default. Why is worship a part of the school experience?