'we said thanks to God today mummy!' Really??

[unexpectediteminbaggingarea]

Apparently a 'special lady' came and told my son and his class that God gave them a special gift so they should all say thank you to him. And they did.

Does this kind of shit go on everywhere? It's not a church school. I am an athiest. My son, aged 4, is now apparently not. He says that, thinking about it, he now thinks God is real and the reason you can't see him is because he 'lives in a different country, maybe London'.

I'm actually quite pissed off about it (not the London bit, that was funny), but if it's what happens everywhere or is some kind of statutory thing I suppose I'll have to suck it up. If it's not I may write to the head.

Although I do think more time on geography and less time on God might be better for DS .

Absolutely do respect views of people with deeply felt beliefs and want my DD to learn about them. Am not considering taking DD out of RE, although have to pretend we are thinking about it in order for them to tell us what they are teaching.

Would like to feel in position that my deeply felt beliefs are also respected.

Just because we might be atheists doesn't mean we live in a moral vacuum & are all faith-haters. (which is how my school is making me feel)

Oh ffs.

Even your username offends me for what it implies.

We are not talking about church schools.

Why should the non religious sit through worship? Thats not respectful.

married why should we automatically respect everyones views? If I told you I believed that all French people were actually half human/half platypus would you respect my view? You should respect the persons right to have a view but demanding we respect any view whatever is obviously nonsensical.

I get the impression, from reading the experiences on this thread, that it's often reception/year one children who are suddenly 'getting God' and coming home and talking about it all. DS1 is half a term into Reception and I think he finds it all a novelty, because we don't (or didn't ...) talk about god or religion at home (atheists). I was initially spitting tacks when he told me, authoritively, that God made the world and everything in it in a week, and so on. And to say that a 4 year old should be free to 'choose' to be religious ignores the fact that most 4 yos will believe anything a teacher tells them.

I'm now more relaxed about it. He also believes in Father Christmas, and the Easter Bunny, and I'm not about to tear those childhood beliefs down. To him, I think God is part of the same 'magic' and totally indivisible from Santa, Tree Fu Tom, etc. I could be cold-bloodedly logical and insist that if I don't promote a belief in God to him, I should also stop him paying obesiance to a fat man in a red suit who holds sway over him at this time of year. But I'm not going to.

I continue to gently counter his assertions about God by saying 'Yes, that's what some people believe'. I spoke recently to his teacher at parents' evening and she says that when they have bible stories in class (i.e. as R.E.) she prefaces them by saying 'some people believe this, some people don't, or believe something else'. Which was not the absolutist approach I was getting from DS1! I'm happy with her approach (it's a C of E school, but they all are round here) and I'm more comfortable with the whole issue now, while still wishing that they didn't feel they have to start teaching religion so early.

I find threads like this absolutely fascinating. I teach in the US, in a very, very Christian area. The vast majority of my students are regular church goers.

If anything like the the OP describes happened in any of the schools I teach in, those responsible would be sacked so fast it would make your head spin.

Interestingly, some of the quickest to complain anytime we get too close to religion are some of the churchier families. They do not trust the state schools to properly provide religious instruction.

French people aren't half platypus?

For those of you who don't like the status quo, you might wish to join one or all of these organisations which campaign for the end of collective worship in state funded schools:

Accord Coalition - this is for religous and non-religious people who 'want all state funded schools to be made open and suitable for all children, regardless of their or their parents? religious or non-religious beliefs'.

The National Secular Society - here is their campaign on collective worship in schools. Remember, secular is not anti-religion, certainly not a synonym for atheistic (as someone seemed to imply upthread) - its about separation of church and state, Christians can also be secularists (as in the US etc).

British Humanist Association - as linked to earlier - if you're a humanist.

They do not trust the state schools to properly provide religious instruction.

The children most often withdrawn from school collective worship in the UK have parents from non-mainstream sects such as Jehovah's Witnesses, as far as I can make out.

The US I think errs more on the other side of the argument by not providing all-round religious education. It leaves the children too liable to only ever hear their parents' worldview.

If the US and UK had the only options, I'd stick with the UK. Obviously there is a sensible alternative - RE but no collective worship. Britain is the only Western democracy to require worship in non-religious publicly funded schools.

The US I think errs more on the other side of the argument by not providing all-round religious education. It leaves the children too liable to only ever hear their parents' worldview.

Yup. Even the (relatively few) school districts that do have RE here in the US generally leave it until very late in the game, teaching it only to 14-18 year olds. As if learning what other people believe is dangerous somehow, and only to be trusted to older children!

Why are children expected to learn something and then reject it?

Why is that the default?

Many of us are raising our children without religion. That is, they do not have religion in their lives, it is never introduced at home. Yet we are supposed to just accept that as soon as they renter formal education they will be told stuff as fact which they can then reject if they wan to. Why?

Exactly. They should find religion if they want to. Not have it forced upon them in an environment which promotes respecting and believing the adults in charge.

"We all grew up under the same shit, after all. All things bright and beautiful and grace before the lamb stew and sponge pudding."

Um, no. That may be your experience but it is certainly not everyone's.

I have never sung all things bright and beautiful and have never been asked to say grace, not once.

I grew up a 3rd-generation atheist, in inner London in the 80s.

That was my experience aufanie. Unfortunately.

Still doesnt mean thats what I want for my kids.

While I don't think that worship should be in schools it won't change(and can't change) without an act of Parliament. Nothing will happen while people simply moan- they need to actively lobby. It would interesting to know if anyone has actively done anything at all. You have to go beyond the Head and governors- they are doing as they are obliged to do by law.

It isn't something I can get terribly motivated about. I didn't have children expecting them to follow my views. I took mine to church, they don't go and don't believe- my friend who is an atheist has a DS who lives his entire life around his local C of E church. What I don't understand is why it matters or why it changes the relationship- we are all the same people.

Most people on these threads agree (or at least pay lip service) to the idea that children should be allowed to make up their own minds when they are old enough to comprehend the issues. I've come across very few atheists who aren't quite stringent about this, and therefore want to avoid discussion of their own views when their children are young (set against this, most christians will happily take their kids to sunday school, muslims to Koran school).

That, I think, is one of the reasons why they then find it so disconcerting when their child comes home from infant school talking about God as fact. By trying to do the right thing and not impose their own views on religion, they've left it wide open for religious people to wade in.

So what are we supposed to do? Without having planned it particularly (not having realised that even in a private school which didn't have to do collective worship or infer the existence of God as fact), although we hadn't really discussed our views on religion we had taken DD to lots of science museums, explained rainbows, evolution,read books about space, Greek myths etc- so that the religious message at school wasn't falling on a totally blank slate. Hymns about god making the world or animals are likely to be taken less literally if the child has some knowledge of accepted scientific theories relating to such matters. Of course, such knowledge is not in the least incompatible with belief in god (just not literalism) so furnishing your child with this knowledge is not imposing your religious beliefs - it just gives them a context against which to judge new thoughts they may be exposed to.

Nobody on this thread then will be celebrating Christmas or Easter I take it; or if they do will do so in a materialistic context. Cadbury and Percy Pig advent calendars for all of your children and obsessive worship of the idol of materialism? That requires no balance I suppose.

Im in a dilema now.

Let DD stay for worship which I disagree strongly with. Because nothing will change if everyone accepts the status quo.

Or remove her and create a division. Make her seem somehow different to all the others and set her apart.

I resent having to make that choice. It makes me

Christmas is about celebrating family for me. And being thankful for what we have. Just because I am not thanking God does not make me materialistic.

Nothing will happen while people simply moan- they need to actively lobby

it is better for people who feel strongly about it to get involved in the organisations who campaign about it

Yup - that's why I put in those links. These organisations need support for their campaigns if anything is ever going to change.

Don't be silly, Married. Christmas and Easter are not exclusively Christian festivals. Easter is about celebrating new life in springtime: 'The name Easter derived from the Saxon Eostre (a.k.a. Eastre). The ancient Saxons in Northern Europe worshiped the Goddess Oestre at the time of the Spring Equinox. The Goddess Easter represents the sunrise, spring-time and fertility, the renewal of life.'

I wasnt going to bring it up Grimma. But since you did...

Yes, a lot of events in our calendar have roots in paganism. Even the christian ones.

What surprises me is that so few parents seem aware of this compulsory worship element. I believe RE is an important part of the curriculum, but RE is very different to religious worship.

"AIBU to be surprised how few people know all UK state schools include compulsory Christian worship?" - anyone want to start that thread? :)

Go on, start it - can only raise awareness.

I suppose people aren't aware of it because its not something that would occur to most people as being a reasonable thing to have enshrined in law in the 21st century. Also, it may be that because of the higher profile nowadays of faith schools, there is more of an assumption that the non-faith schools will be the secular alternative that they should be.

At my dc's school they have a group of elderly cofe Christians that come in and act out a biblical story every week. I'm looking forward to the weeks they act out some of the lesser known biblical passages such as god sending the bears to kill small kids for laughing at a bald prophet. I'm guessing the kids will get on with their work nicely after that little ditty.