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Primary education

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Original poster

'we said thanks to God today mummy!' Really??

332 replies

unexpectediteminbaggingarea · 22/10/2012 17:55

Apparently a 'special lady' came and told my son and his class that God gave them a special gift so they should all say thank you to him. And they did.

Does this kind of shit go on everywhere? It's not a church school. I am an athiest. My son, aged 4, is now apparently not. He says that, thinking about it, he now thinks God is real and the reason you can't see him is because he 'lives in a different country, maybe London'.

I'm actually quite pissed off about it (not the London bit, that was funny), but if it's what happens everywhere or is some kind of statutory thing I suppose I'll have to suck it up. If it's not I may write to the head.

Although I do think more time on geography and less time on God might be better for DS Grin .

OP posts:
TheMightyMojoceratops · 22/10/2012 20:16

Mrz, that survey is flawed, I think, in that it asks parents if their children "attend a daily act of worship" - the OP here is/was clearly unaware this happens, and I think many parents just aren't aware of what assemblies contain.

The British Humanist Association are campaigning for reform and suggest how you can support that.

radicalsubstitution · 22/10/2012 20:23

peachypips, only a poor teacher would teach the big bang as fact.

The big bang is the scientifically accepted theory about how the current universe came into existence. Science is a method, not a body of facts, by which a hypothesis becomes an accepted idea based on the collection of evidence. Often scientists have to discount much loved ideas (such as the mouse bacteria link to ME), if evidence arises to contradict their ideas.

As a science teacher, I have no right to use the scientific method to try to disprove anyone's religious beliefs. As a Christian, I have no problems teaching about the scientifically accepted ideas of evolution or the creation of the universe - I am not a fundamentalist. I teach many students who are, however, and would never belittle their personal beliefs.

Himalaya · 22/10/2012 20:32

Inexpecteditem - I would go in to school and talk to the teacher or head (if you can work out if it was a classroom or assembly visitor) just to find out who she was, and what she said and what the children were expected to do. I wouldn't come down heavy, but just let them know you are a bit Hmm about it.

Not sure how multi ethnic your school is, but in my experience schools can be sensitive and careful about avoiding putting kids who are from other religious cultures in the position of having to pray to Jesus etc...Most schools recognise that this would be inappropriate. But often anyone who is not clearly from a religious minority is considered to be CoE by default. So schools that don't have lots of religious minorities tend to interpret the law more traditionally.

If you speak up (and others do) yes this shit will still happen, but at least you will give the school reason to think twice about how they implement the law.

mrz · 22/10/2012 20:33

TheMightyMojoceratops I think some peoples perception of school assemblies is flawed too

Portofino · 22/10/2012 20:33

Hmm, I never unduly stress about these things. I went to a CofE Primary, said Grace every day, then joined the Brownies and went to church frequently. I attended Sunday School and joined the choir. By the time I was 12 though, I had put it all behind me. I probably still have a CofE ethos though, and think it is culturally important. It is interesting to look at the history of it all.

My dd is not baptised and we have always done the "some believe" approach. As roughly half her class are Muslim and the other half Catholic, this seemed to be the way to go. It is important to me that she can make her own choices, but equally she must learn to respect others. Education is mainly secular in Belgium but you can pick an RE track - dd does Ethics. The Ethics teacher has recently gone on Maternity Leave and they don't yet have a replacement. I was mildly miffed that they did not ASK and put dd in Catholique class.

solidgoldbrass · 22/10/2012 20:39

Tell your DC that it's just a story as soon as they are old enough to understand the difference between stories and real stuff. That's what I do.

aufaniae · 22/10/2012 20:39

OP I would be extremely annoyed at this.

If DS ever comes home telling me he's been made to give thanks to god for something I'll be having serious words with the school.

It's indoctrination IMO.

solidgoldbrass · 22/10/2012 20:51

The law should definitely be changed. Oh and before all the bleating starts, it's getting rid of the 'daily collective act of worship' which needs to happen. Of course children need a little bit of RE ie learning about the myth systems and their histories. An hour a week is plenty. But compelling rational people to pretend to talk to something that isn't there is ludicrous.
It's not like there's a shortage of places to go and do that, if it's something you want to do, but it shouldn't be imposed on other people who have no interest in your imaginary friend.

Himalaya · 22/10/2012 20:54

I thought you were being unusually laid back about it in your first post SGB Smile

seeker · 22/10/2012 20:55

" As a Christian, I have no problems teaching about the scientifically accepted ideas of evolution or the creation of the universe - I am not a fundamentalist. I teach many students who are, however, and would never belittle their personal beliefs."

But you also have a responsibility to point out the incompatibility of their beliefs and scientific fact......

radicalsubstitution · 22/10/2012 21:14

seeker - absolutely. I just don't like the way science is always seen to teach unalterable facts.

ArthurShappey · 22/10/2012 21:16

I think SGB has summed it up nicely...

Personally I am happy to have my son learn about cultures and beliefs and RE. But you will not encourage or coerce my son into giving thanks to god or to pray to god. And my son should not be excluded from assemblies and lessons because of this (in the same way I bloody was) he shouldn't need to be excluded because there is no place for worship in school, education yes, worship no.

radicalsubstitution · 22/10/2012 21:16

....and by that I don't mean that there could be any evidence that suggests the earth is 6500 years old. All current evidence suggests it is about 4.6 billlion. I'm just saying that the evidence supports that idea - not that it is absolute fact.

LaBelleDameSansPatience · 22/10/2012 21:18

So many people getting so heated about so little and with so little grasp of the facts.

  1. All maintained - state funded schools - have to hold assemblies of which at least 51% are wholly or broadly Christian in content. You can go and 'have serious words' with the school, but they have no choice. If you don't like it, take your child out of collective worship or, indeed, of school.
  2. Calling the beliefs of others 'shit' is extremely offensive and weakens your case.
  3. Your child will be exposed to many things at school with which you disagree, which may or may not include lady vicars, Moshi Monster swaps at play time, hitherto unknown swear words, medical names for body parts, 'having' to learn a few words of French instead of something 'more useful', sex education ... Some parents are in all the time to complain; some accept that they cannot control their child's experience every second of the day.
  4. All good primary schools make sure that their pupils are aware that people believe in many different religions and some in none. I certainly do, as both RE coordinator and CW leader in my school. I also ensure that they show respect for all these beliefs and would be very disappointed if they made some of the remarks I have read here.

My daughter, in Reception, understood that 'some people believe this; some believe that'. Generally she believes in some form of god, as I do - she fiinds it very interesting, as I do. Sometimes she decided that it is impossible and there can be no deity. I am fine with this; she is gathering information and comparing ideas. I trust her to do this and do not try and censor the input.

radicalsubstitution · 22/10/2012 21:23

LBDSP - great post!

LindyHemming · 22/10/2012 21:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DuelingFanjo · 22/10/2012 21:30

"What are you so afraid of?"

why does the op or anyone who feels the same have to be accused of being afraid?

You can think people coming into schools and feeding those without religion lies and fairy-tales as fact is shitty without it being frightening.

I really resent this idea that children should start off being lied to and then their parents need to put the effort in to tell them it's just bollox. Leave children alone. stop filling their impressionable minds with crap.

DuelingFanjo · 22/10/2012 21:34

"Why does not believing in God make someone afraid of something? Does that belief not deserve the same respect as organised religion?" not believing in something is not a belief. Atheism is not a faith.

my son is without religion, as all children are until someone decide to force it on them. those of us without religion should not have to worry about other people trying to indoctrinate our children.

seeker · 22/10/2012 21:34

"So many people getting so heated about so little"

Well, if it's so little, why do Christians cling to it so fiercely?

radicalsubstitution · 22/10/2012 21:35

......just to add some light to an otherwise depressing thread.....

DS came home in reception and told me that he'd learnt, in assembly, that children in Uganda don't have toys or computers.

He really should spend more time on Georgraphy and less on RE. Wine

wannabedomesticgoddess · 22/10/2012 21:38

I believe in science. I believe that religion is false. For reasons that I wont go into here because I keep them to myself.

Those are my beliefs so Im sorry, but not having a religion does not mean I dont have beliefs.

BrittaPerry · 22/10/2012 21:54

Until Friday, DD has been at a Catholic school, despite us being atheist, because what is the point of sending her anywhere else? (even if there was anywhere else to send her round here)

I firmly believe that religion and politics is a matter for the home. Fine to learn about them (as in "some people think...") but never ever to be taught as fact, and especially not by the same people telling the kids that 1+1=2.

I am a massive socialist, and I would be horrified if they started singing The Red Flag at school. I wish the religious would extend the same courtesy. If they are so sure of their beliefs, only foist them on people who want to be foisted upon. Leave it to parents to decide what is right for their child, and let school concentrate on learning facts as facts and opinions as opinions.

I have no issue with people having religion - good luck to them. Just don't expect me to join in.

We have deregistered her now. Friday will be her last day.

(I am a member of Labour, and Fabians, and Fawcett, and Education Otherwise...I do try to do something)

solidgoldbrass · 22/10/2012 21:59

The thing that boggles me is that if you are dim enough to believe in any one of the major myth brands, you by definition believe that all the others are wrong yet will still cack on about how important it is to treat them with 'respect'. 4 and 5 year olds being raised by Hindu, Sikh, Muslim or Jewish parents must find it just as confusing as children being raised free from religion to have someone forcefeeding them specfically Christian mythology as 'truth'.

Woozley · 22/10/2012 22:00

I don't see why people find it hard to understand how expressing a belief - or teaching "some people believe that" in RE, which is fine, of course, is vastly different from having Bible stories in assembly or saying prayers at the end of the day.

The latter is teaching the existence of God as fact. The latter is indoctrination. Assuming of course, they don't say prayers then add a caveat "Of course there is no proof that any of this will work, it is probably complete fantasy"...which I don't think they do, somehow. Of course, when kids get older they may question what they believe etc. But why present a certain belief - not fact - belief - as the Norm? Why should that be allowed? I'm happy for kids to learn about their Christian heritage, to do harvest and nativity plays and such like, you can't really learn about British culture and history without including religion. But there is no need to present the existence of God as fact as fact in schools. Let parents teach children their own belief systems - sure, but don't include Christianity as part of mandatory educational policy!

And while we're at it, why do we need an Official Religion in this country? Why do we have Bishops entitled to vote on legislation? Sort it out!