Lack of discipline in schools is the fault of head teachers

[GooseyLoosey]

I was listening to the radio yesterday and the Chairman of the National Association of Head Teachers was being interviewed (about an OECD report that smaller class sizes do not corelate to better education, but that's a whoel other thread). He said that poor discipline in schools was not the fault of parents or due to any societal trends but due to poor head teachers.

He argued that what maintained discipline in a school were effective sanctions put in place by the head which all teachers imposed and which the head back them up with. If a head cannot impose discipline, the implication was that they were ineffective and weak.

Do you agree with this? There is a huge bullying problem in my son's school and I was recently told by a teacher that they "just did not know what to do". That seemed wrong to me at the time and was the first time that I have really questioned the management of the school as it does not appear to me that that should ever be an appropriate response.

And exoticfruits has put in a nutshell the way I would go too.

I work in a former failing school, with a very challenging catchment intake. It now has a great head, who sets the boundaries but is very caring. Fantastic.

My children go to a neighbouring school, formerly the "best" in the area. It also had a new head, roughly at the same time. It has behaviour problems, low parent satisfaction, bullying in the playground. Far less "social problems" in the intake.

This leads me to think the head has a lot to do with it.

jalapeno I think a lot of it is because the teacher has chosen not to say anything at all since our first parents evening last term. If she had written in his school report what she said on Thursday then I would have put matters in hand to get things changed. I have told ds that if he misbehaves in class or gets detention then he will have privileges withdrawn. I would have preferred to do that sooner but without being told I couldn't. When he got detention last term he lost privileges (cancelled favourite weekend activities).

He was read the riot act after last parents' evening - I told him that he has to pay attention, concentrate and not distract others from working simply because he finds the work easy. He said today that he still finds the work easy but I imagine he is no longer making any effort and his work has slipped accordingly.

He got Bs for effort in most of his report. A B is "Good - high effort in most aspects of the subject". He got a C " Satisfactory - adequate effort " in English, Music and Games". I told him that I expect As for effort as effort is more important than attainment.

I don't think the head is as good as the previous one but another parent who has similar issues with their dc in the other year 3 class was pleasantly surprised at how good he was in helping. The other year teacher has a reputation of being very caring and supportive and it was a question of how best to offer support. She likes ds and he likes her (and was doing very well in her lessons). Ds was very disappointed he didn't get her as his teacher.

Wow - so many more responses than I expected!

MollieO - good luck with your meeting with the head.

The incident which started me thinking about whether the NAHT chair was correct was a playground one in which a group of normally very nice boys tied up another. This followed a number of other incidents when the same group (well same ring-leader slightly different members each time) attacked my son. There is a mob mentality and the school by its own admission does not know what to do because these are "nice" children.

The more I thought about it, the more I wondered whether this behaviour had become acceptable because there were no effective sanctions. The children are not scared of the head and being made to sit outside her office for a while and then told off seems to have no impact at all. The school then say they have no other sanctions, but this cannot be right. I can think of some!

Sorry that I seem to have hijacked your thread. I think it's so important for a head to have the right balance of respect and a little bit of fear. Ds's old head was absolutely adored by the boys but they knew that she was strict too.

Don't worry MollieO - was interested to read your comments.

Goosey- sorry, I did actually listen to this interview on the way to work and agreed with him

DS' school - head is a female, she ain't very tall (5ft if that!!) but she is as big as a mountain as far as the students are concerned - all 1500 of them. Put a foot wrong and you will be very quickly flattened!! Do the right thing and she is behind you 100% even 120%!! There was an incident at the local very large supermarket near the school they said involving a pupil, pupil was found to be in no way involved in what had happened - child from another school - head went to the said supermarket and politely asked to see the manager - she did and proved that it was not said child's fault - child and parents and school received a full apology from said supermarket because child was in no way to blame, then head went to other secondary school and spoke with the head there and between them they were able to identify the child responsible and the other school dealt with it. Head teacher gained top marks that day from the whole school because she stood up for one of her own who she said deserved the same rights as an adult. However woe betide any of the students who cross her path for the wrong reasons...............me thinks murder would ensue!!

UK headteachers are the best in the developed world, says OECD
www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6194044

I told her at the start of term that if he's interested and engaged he would be her best pupil but if not he'd be her worst.

oh my goodness. i was trying to read through the thread but i had to stop there.

how arrogant! it's your place to bring up your child to behave well, not anyone else's place to entertain the mannerless oaf. get your part right and you won't have to forewarn the teacher!

Learnandsay. You are talking about children who have been failed by parents, education system, society, by the systems and norms regarded as acceptable. However, IME as a mother and past teacher I found the most unruly children and the worst behaved came from middle class families where mum and dad were too busy, tired, or up themselves to give their children support, love, guidance, nurturing they needed.