Lack of discipline in schools is the fault of head teachers

[GooseyLoosey]

I was listening to the radio yesterday and the Chairman of the National Association of Head Teachers was being interviewed (about an OECD report that smaller class sizes do not corelate to better education, but that's a whoel other thread). He said that poor discipline in schools was not the fault of parents or due to any societal trends but due to poor head teachers.

He argued that what maintained discipline in a school were effective sanctions put in place by the head which all teachers imposed and which the head back them up with. If a head cannot impose discipline, the implication was that they were ineffective and weak.

Do you agree with this? There is a huge bullying problem in my son's school and I was recently told by a teacher that they "just did not know what to do". That seemed wrong to me at the time and was the first time that I have really questioned the management of the school as it does not appear to me that that should ever be an appropriate response.

There are somethings in work (and school) that aren't terribly exciting but that we still need to do them and we still need to learn. We can't just pick which we want to do and which we don't

Exactly. It simply isn't good enough to tell the teacher at the outset that if the necessary learning doesn't stimulate the pupil he'll simply refuse to engage with it and will be difficult to teach, or he'll only engage if he feels like it.

I don't think ds is engaged at all. I appreciate that not all learning can be fun but I'd hope that some of it would be. It seems to be all worksheets and workbooks and plodding their way through.

I gather that when they finish work early they just have to sit there and read a book whilst waiting for the others to finish. I think that is a recipe for disaster where ds is concerned and if he is struggling with reading then getting him to read when he doesn't understand won't be helping.

I don't think "discipline" can be isolated as a facet of a school that is separate from the culture of self-improvement and learning that ought to be at the heart of every curriculum. A lot of problems stem from seeing discipline as an issue separate to learning.

When I check his workbooks he seems to get all his work right with only the occasional mistake so again I don't understand why the teacher says he is struggling so much.

I think discipline is part of learning. The emphasis is on self reliance and moderating and checking their own behaviour. Clearly he isn't doing that but not sure how to help him do that in class when it isn't an issue at home.

by letting him know there are consequences if he fails to work in school

It isn't about him failing to work though, it is about him not behaving when he's finished his work because (I assume) he is being told to read a book. Why ask a child who doesn't understand what they are reading to sit there and read a book whilst the remainder of the class finish their work? There needs to be consistency. Other class parents who know him were very surprised to discover that he is bottom of the class now.

He has gone from an academically very able and well behaved child in yr 2 to a child in yr 3 that is 'below average and struggling academically and is the only one in the class not on track for yr 4'

He isn't working and you need to face it and more importantly so does he.

True, mrz. He says he won't do his best work for a teacher who shouts and lies (she's lied to another parent about not shouting and ds's classmate told him).

I need to find a way of getting ds to try in class. It must be a thing that happened only this term as he got Bs for effort in his school report (except English, Games and Music where he got a C).

I've told him it would be a shame not to get a choral scholarship because his schoolwork isn't up to scratch. That should be enough of an incentive to pull his socks up.

He said he tried his best at his scholarship tests but that he won't do that at school.

Well he needs to be told that he has to do his best work for himself regardless of whether he likes or dislikes the teacher or there will be consequences.

I would also say that choir schools IME are VERY picky about the behaviour and academic progress of their choral scholars. You need to make him understand that SHOULD he get a choral scholarship, he needs to make certain that his behaviour is exemplary in class as any shortfall in his school work and behaviour will affect whether he is allowed to sing.

In your shoes, if he does get the choral scholarship and so is planning to move schools, I would emphasise that he needs to practise the behaviour he plans to show in his new school as of now, or else there will be serious consequences. I would also say that you are not prepared to send him to a new school if he doesn't try his best - it is a waste of everyone's time and money. He has to show, from now, his very best work at all times.

In particular, you might want to restrict an out-of-school activity he enjoys unless he can 'earn' it through good behaviour at school. My DS had a patch of being inexcusably slow in completing his work, to the extent that some was sent home to complete. He HAD to complete all that work before he was allowed to go to the out of school activity he would normally attend that night - if he was late, or had to miss it, that was something he had brought on himself. he did speed up very quickly after that....

He knows he has to do his best work and try his best if he moves schools. He just doesn't want to do his best work for her. When I asked him if he tried his best in his academic tests for the new school he said of course and gave me a look that meant he thought it was a ridiculous question. His behaviour there was exemplary.

The only activity he does outside school during the week is choir practice and I can't ban that.

My DD dislikes her current teacher, and knows that he is not as good as other teachers in the school.

She also knows that if she ever does anything less than her best work in school, there will be consequences. I have talked to her about the fact that it's very easy to get out of the habit of doing our best work, and much harder to get back into that habit once it is lost.

Why can't you ban choir practice? My children know that school work is a priority, and that EVERYTHING out of school is an earned privilege. Should they fail to do their school work, there are no evening activities.

I don't think you can have some kind of blanket rule that school takes absolute priority over out-of-school activities. Sometimes out-of-school activities contribute an awful lot more to a child's education than school does.

Can't ban choir practice as that lets others down and there are only 8 boys in the choir to start with. He does school clubs which I've told him will be banned next term if things don't improve (can't ban them now as school has a policy that they have to attend for the term).

What if he comes across a teacher at the choir school who he takes a dislike to/shouts/does anything else he doesn't like? Will he appreciate there that he still has to knuckle down and do his best or will he believe he should only work hard when it suits him?

MollieO he needs to know he has to do his best regardless of which school he is at!

Teachers shouldn't shout at children, though, really.

and remove his weekend activities if necessary

LineRunner - I agree, and I also think that some teachers have behaviours that are disrespectful of the children and that they shouldn't therefore be surprised if the children therefore lose respect for them. Teacher-pupil relationships obey exactly the same rules as any other human relationship.

MollieO, what do you actually say to your son when he says that this teacher doesn't deserve his best work?

Bonsoir this is a child who has displayed this type of behavior with his previous teachers too ... are they all disrespectful to or is he perhaps making excuses. [cynical]

to him*