Lack of discipline in schools is the fault of head teachers

[GooseyLoosey]

I was listening to the radio yesterday and the Chairman of the National Association of Head Teachers was being interviewed (about an OECD report that smaller class sizes do not corelate to better education, but that's a whoel other thread). He said that poor discipline in schools was not the fault of parents or due to any societal trends but due to poor head teachers.

He argued that what maintained discipline in a school were effective sanctions put in place by the head which all teachers imposed and which the head back them up with. If a head cannot impose discipline, the implication was that they were ineffective and weak.

Do you agree with this? There is a huge bullying problem in my son's school and I was recently told by a teacher that they "just did not know what to do". That seemed wrong to me at the time and was the first time that I have really questioned the management of the school as it does not appear to me that that should ever be an appropriate response.

Mollieo, I have been thinking about what you have written here and i am trying to work out what it is you want from opening discussions with the Head.

If you are trying to understand why you child is struggling then I would have thought an extended meeting with the class teacher, following on from the parents evening, would be the way to go. Then you can gain specifically things you you and he can work on. You have implied (I think) that the senco has been involved previously, would this be fair? And if so, would it be good to contact them also?

If your aim is to make a formal complaint against the teacher then you will need to gather your information carefully and be clear that your DS hasn't just hit a plateau in his learning which could be perfectly normal. (in which case, meeting with the class teacher would still be a good idea first)

The other thing I found odd was how this all came as a huge surprise. I thought parents' evenings were supposed to be like appraisals - if the teacher is doing their job well then nothing she said at parents' evening should have come as a surprise. I also think it is odd to expect me to wait and see his end of year exam results to see how badly he is doing. By then it will be too late to change things in year 3 and his learning will no longer be her problem (or maybe that is what she wants?).

Not interested in making a formal complaint and not interested in another meeting with the teacher. When I paraphrased what she said to me she said I was putting words in her mouth. I wasn't I was trying to understand what she was telling me.

Senco involved in second term of yr 1 to first term of yr 2 to help with reading. Stopped when ds caught up and was one of the best readers in the class. I don't see any problems with ds's reading or understanding at all and neither do the teachers that hear him read daily.

Reading concerns me most as it is such an essential skill to succeed in school.

Sorry for the multiple posts. No plateau - seemingly a downward curve equivalent to a ski jump slope if I've understood correctly.

I frankly don't see how a downward slope is possible! I can see how the signals your are getting from the school are confusing and worrying.

What is your aim in contacting the Head then?

'spot early and intervene swiftly and effectively, to achieve successful return to mainstream' Our PRU was set up exactly with this ethos. We also do a lot of outreach work supporting mainstream schools in managing children with behaviour difficulties.
However, this is a growth area. Plus, there are increasing numbers of children who cannot function effectively in a mainstream classroom, even with a high level of support and who need access to a long-term full-time specialist provision.

IMHO there are not enough specialist provisions to support children with behaviour issues (for whatever reasons) so that they can achieve their full potential socially, emotionally and academically.

I don't know anything about the academy policy to encourage specialism and innovation other than that we could now apparently apply for academy status.
Currently we are under direct LA control and in addition to referrals from mainstream schools, we are obliged to take any children for whom our LA cannot find an appropriate provision, which means we currently have 7 or so children with complex mixed needs including learning difficulties alongside our SEBD children. Perhaps becoming an academy would mean we would "choose" our pupils and the schools / LA would pay us for a place / outreach?

To try and ensure ds gets the support he apparently needs. Being told by his teacher that she will continue as she has and saying I have to wait until July to know how badly he does (for exam results) isn't acceptable. If he has somehow had a crash this term then there is still time left in the school year to turn things around. Making me wait until the end of the year means it is no longer her problem.

I don't see how he has gone from succeeding well to failing so badly that he is now bottom of the class. If he has plateaued (she didn't say that, she said he was failing) then why is he the only one in the class to do so? Could that be the case? All the others have improved but he hasn't?

They promised us soldiers.
Young, fit disciplined soldiers who would bring a sense of pride and achievement into the classroom. With muscles and shiny buttons.
I'm still waiting for mine.

I would hope that the head could be impartial and find a way forward that makes the rest of this academic year workable.

"He's in a class of 14. I told her at the start of term that if he's interested and engaged he would be her best pupil but if not he'd be her worst. Not sure what else I can do."

If he behaves so well for you at home, then given that the school have approached you asking for your help at getting him to behave better at school, the what you can do is: tell him that YOU are not happy with his behaviour at school and for every detention he gets at school (which he enjoys) he will be getting a punishment at home he definitely doesn't. That ought to do it.

My DD's secondary school has a real problem with discipline simply because the sanctions are not applied consistently across the school. One girl will get a detention for saying 'bloody hell,' but another girl can scream 'You are all f*ing c**ts!' and just be asked to calm down. It seems that some weaker teachers choose the punish the pupils whom they know will accept the punishment, IYSWIM.

That is most definitely the fault of the Head, and the Chair of Governors should be challenging on this; because yes, parent do complain about these kinds of inconsistencies and the Chair should be auditing them, not hiding them in a cupboard.

MollieO, I do feel for you. Been through similar.

If school contacted me and told me he is getting detention and why then I could do something at home. Only occasionally does she do that but I know he has had many more detentions. He never remembers why!

I've emailed the head to request a meeting to ask what we can do to support ds's learning and to stop the negative progress. He doesn't struggle at all with any school work I've seen so I don't know how to help him. The more I think about it the more I think an Ed psych report could be beneficial.

He did an academic assessment for another school last week and we get the results of that this coming week when they let us know whether he has been awarded a scholarship. It is for singing but if he is really struggling academically I assume it will be a no even though his voice is superb.

MollieO, I think you are right to focus on stopping the negative process.

The teacher is the adult in the relationship at school, and needs to start building a positive set-up. If you all agree to start afresh, as of when you see the Head, that could help, if you all 'buy into' it. I dont see why that should have to wait till July.

At my school, the detention activity is writing about what they have done to warrant the detention, plus what rule has been broken, and this is sent home to parents for signing. Therefore, all parents are aware of why a detention has been given.

Actually mollieo this does sound fairly shite. Do you really want your ds in such a school, because it's not just the teacher but the whole ethos that allows this sort of inconsistency that would have me looking at other options.

mumblesmum, My DD's school is meant to do that, but rarely are parents properly informed. Every time I've queried the school, instead of producing the correct detention slip with the reason given on it, the school has simply cancelled the detention.

That's a crap way to run a school.

I'm glad your school is better.

clam, I have a lot of sympathy for that view. When my DS's primary school was clearly heading down the slippery slope of a vindictive Headteachery-inspired ethos, I moved him.

As for my DD's secondary, what a disappointment that has turned out to be. Sigh. And it's not lack of parental care and concern that's the school's problem - it's that the school's Head regards parents challenging on standards and consistency to be a bit of a nuisance.

I like the idea of a detention slip that is sent home to be signed. That would help reinforce discipline too as ds would know that even if he liked detention at school he certainly won't like any punishment I hand out at home!

Back to the original topic I do think that a school is led by its head. Ours has been there two years but was deputy head for probably 20 years before that. He's done nothing to stamp his mark on the school. Another far younger deputy head was moved this academic year from the senior school and most people expect him to take over soon. I'm not sure we'll still be there by then. If I didn't have to factor in wraparound care I would probably have moved ds by now.

LineRunner I can't begin to imagine what its like to have problems in primary school and to have yet more problems in secondary school.

"When X listens carefully to instructions, he can work hard in order to do as well as possible in all subjects."

That sounds like his behaviour wasn't fantastic back in autumn, to be honest.

Have a look at this. It's the way that I assess my year 3s. If your son is a strong reader, he should be meeting the level 3 descriptors. If he has achieved them all, he would count as a 3b (probably- it is a judgement call).

Juniper, no it wasn't and I told her in October if ds is engaged and motivated his behaviour would be good but if he wasn't then he would be her worst pupil. She seemed surprised when I said that but of course now my prophecy has come true. Rather than looking at ways of improving it she said she will carry on the same.

Thanks for the link. His spelling is very good and his use of vocabulary used to be exceptional (no idea how it is viewed now). They do joined up writing from reception so no issue there. Difficult for me to assess as I don't have anything to compare ds to.

I would be surprised if you said that to me too MollieO. There are somethings in work (and school) that aren't terribly exciting but that we still need to do them and we still need to learn. We can't just pick which we want to do and which we don't. I'm sure your employer wouldn't be terribly happy if you disengaged from the mundane aspects of your job and the same applies to children. A good lesson in life is that sometimes we have to take responsibility for our own actions.

On the whole I would agree with OP. I was a supply teacher in many schools and I really didn't mind what the DCs were like-it was the Head and staff who made the difference. If the Head and staff were friendly and supportive I enjoyed the experience-they would tell you what to do with difficult DCs and, more importantly, back you up.
The schools that I didn't go back to were the ones where I was 'just the supply'(no name) and left to get on. At the end of the day someone might smile wryly and say 'I see you met Jason', when I should have been warned in advance and told the best way to handle him and what to do if it all went wrong.
New Heads can very quickly change a happy, successful school into a miserable one to work in.

I actually meant to give you think link
www.devonldp.org/do_download.asp?did=5839

but for some reason, it opened the wrong file last time I linked it