Lack of discipline in schools is the fault of head teachers

[GooseyLoosey]

I was listening to the radio yesterday and the Chairman of the National Association of Head Teachers was being interviewed (about an OECD report that smaller class sizes do not corelate to better education, but that's a whoel other thread). He said that poor discipline in schools was not the fault of parents or due to any societal trends but due to poor head teachers.

He argued that what maintained discipline in a school were effective sanctions put in place by the head which all teachers imposed and which the head back them up with. If a head cannot impose discipline, the implication was that they were ineffective and weak.

Do you agree with this? There is a huge bullying problem in my son's school and I was recently told by a teacher that they "just did not know what to do". That seemed wrong to me at the time and was the first time that I have really questioned the management of the school as it does not appear to me that that should ever be an appropriate response.

Mollie - did he really have a good year 2 based on that link above? I think you're deluding yourself.

1. Are you reinforcing the school's message on working hard? Or do you make your son feel that it is acceptable to mess around because you don't like the teacher?
2. 2a at the end of year 2 is just above average across the country. Bearing in mind he's at a private school with smaller class sizes, I'd say this would be around average for the circumstances. Whilst he might be bored, there are no indicators through his results that he is G and T.
3. Stop making excuses for his behaviour. If he's being a little shit, it's up to you as much as the school to work through this and improve his behaviour.
4. His teacher sounds a bit of a nightmare, have you had a meeting with the head about what is going on?

If you have been have ongoing problems for three years, then maybe the school isn't the right one for you or him.

My reading from the limited information teacherwith2kids is a combination of the above.

There's another thread somewhere on here where a poster is determined to send her kids to a private school because she believes the behaviour and attitudes are much better. I said on there that, in my experience, the behaviour can frequently be worse in a way, as there are too many children with an entitled arrogance who are every bit as disruptive in class.

MollieO I've just mooched on here to find the same thing being discussed that is on the other thread. I didn't realise about the SENCO writing to you that your DS needed a slap, that is of course dreadful and I would have considered moving him then.

For the problem with this teacher, I honestly think you need to tell him that you are on her side too and he can't sing in his choir if he doesn't try his best. He may let his other choirboys down but that's the whole point in threatening him with that punishment, plus at the moment he is letting himself and his mum down by not trying his best, not to mention his classmates with the bad vibes that these regular standoffs must cause. Like the other poster says, this has to start now, not at the new school.

If there is a physical reason why he can't sit still, get it checked out because that is different and he can't help it. If he just can't be bothered, you need to help the teacher out. He may be a marmite child, she may be a marmite teacher but he should still be doing his best for any teacher and you need to show him you are on her side as well as his.

Just wanted to re-ask this, as Mollie clearly missed it.

"MollieO, what do you actually say to your son when he says that this teacher doesn't deserve his best work?"

Ds hasn't had detention this year, so he informs me, which is why I haven't heard about it. If his behaviour is as bad as his teacher says then I wonder why?

I haven't said that he is G&T. I've said that I'd be happy academically if he is average. He was average but now he is below average and practically bottom of the class.

He does sit still. No problem with that at all. His talking is the problem.

He is no angel but he is very polite, thoughtful and caring both at home and at school. Unfortunately I'm one of those parents who is quick to assume the blame lies with ds for most things. However with this teacher that is different.

I'm more and more thinking I'm going to push the head to agree to an EP referral (better to do that with the school's support than without). That way we shall see if there is any underlying issues that need to be addressed. It may simply come down to the way ds learns and whatever this teacher is doing isn't working for ds. I know someone else who got their ds assessed independently and she has refused to implement strategies in class to support his learning (although originally she said she would, she just hasn't bothered).

They do wear nice blazers. We visited another (private) school last week and everyone commented on it

I've told him irrespective of what he thinks of the teacher he must try his best. I'm sympathetic though as I'd struggle to do my best work for someone who shouts at me. He says she shouts so much at the class that he loses his place in his work and forgets what he is supposed to be doing.

Just wondering why you want an EP assessment BEFORE having serious, sit down meetings with the class teacher and the head to address your son's behaviour?

It is perfectly possible that your son has no SEN at all, but is simply choosing to be badly behaved - and so you and the school need to work on a consistent approach of sanctions and rewards to deal with that BEFORE leaping to a conclusion that it must be an SEN issue.

Of course your child can miss choir if he doesn't behave. DS was VERY late to his (attached to a professional league team) football centre of excellence because he had to complete school work (he was the only goalie, so this was definitely a problem for the team). I explained why. Not only did the centre entirely support my stance, they made it extremely clear to him that he could ONLY attend training and matches if he continued to excel in his school work. If you were serious abvout managing your child's behaviour, you would speak to the choir master, explain the situation, and enlist their support in helping your son to behave in school. Saying 'oh, he can't miss choir' is just another example of how you aren't working with the school to address your child's behaviour issues.

MollieO, I really think you need to have a really good, long think about the future of you and your son.

Having just read that other thread, I can't help but worry about the future of your relationship with your child.

This class teacher might be your current gripe, but if your son is not interested in pleasing you, disobeys you and has as much power over you as it seems, then you're going to really struggle both emotionally and practically.

If he's refusing to do his homework aged 6, and there's nothing you can do to make him, then how are you going to handle him when he is 14?

It sounds to me like your DS has very little respect for adults. Maybe his current teacher is the biggest bitch in the whole wide world, but he should still follow her instructions. And he should follow yours.

I think you need to reassess where the power falls in your relationship with him. Otherwise, his behaviour will drain you completely and you'll lose any relationship with your son.

MollieO now I am confused because yesterday you said on this thread If school contacted me and told me he is getting detention and why then I could do something at home. Only occasionally does she do that but I know he has had many more detentions. He never remembers why!

Mollie, are you absolutely sure that everything that your child tells you about school is the truth? If it is, then you should remove your son from the school ... but are you sure?

He does his homework. That is no longer an issue.

He hasn't had detention this year (ie 2012). Query how bad is his behaviour?

Ds does have respect for adults he is 'polite, helpful and thoughtful'. Not my words.

He does follow my instructions. He doesn't have a choice where that's concerned.

"He says she shouts so much at the class that he loses his place in his work and forgets what he is supposed to be doing."

It sounds to me like your child is a master at manipulating you.

mrz I know he got detention last term. One of them was for not running in sports (I called the school to check that one). I just assumed from what his teacher said at parents' evening that the detentions had continued this term without me knowing about them, but apparently not.

I only know what ds says and what other parents in the class say. Not sure how I can know the truth short of setting up a webcam!

No intention of getting an EP done without school support. What would be the point of that?

Sunscorch - everyone says she shouts, not just my ds.

Either he has had detentions this year or he hasn't MollieO ... you need to stop making excuses for him

I don't want this to seem like a tirade but...he isn't thoughtful and caring at home if he tells you that his teacher is a liar and he doesn't want to work hard for her, even though he should know a) that is rude to his teacher and b) you are desperate for him to knuckle down.

Perhaps you should try a natural consequences tactic. If he won't do his homework you will have to sit at the kitchen table whilst he faffs about. Which means you can't take him to singing. Or go shopping for food so there isn't any nice food and there is only [insert food he hates] in the house. You can't tidy up so there isn't any space for him to do his [insert activity he likes] and wouldn't things be better if he did his homework whilst you do your chores (which you don't want to do, obviously but do it for the greater good) and then you can do nice stuff together after. Make his life tedious until you get some cooperation.

Do you truly believe the teacher stands and shouts at a room full of children working quietly? If he is the disruptive element and working hard what is she shouting about? If you 100% believe him, why is he still in this school?

mrz I don't know if he has or hasn't had detentions. He say he hasn't. I've not been told that he has. Surely his teacher would tell me? Like I said it seems very odd indeed to have all the problems she is apparently having with him but not bother to contact me. As a teacher don't you think that is a bit odd to say the least?

As for reading - according to the comments in his reading diary he reads with 'enthusiasm and expression'. No comments saying he doesn't understand what he is reading. The odd comment asking me to check pronounciation of a word or two.

Ok, as a positive step forwards...

Why don't you suggest a home/ school book to this teacher? He can decorate it with things he likes etc. Then it belongs to you, him and school. It's a joint venture.

As a basic principle- each lesson of the day, he gets a sticker/ stamp/ smiley face if he has behaved well. Maybe a comment at the end of the day from the teacher too.

Book comes home to you. If he does his homework etc, you write a short and pleasant note to congratulate him.

He gives himself a rating out of 5 for how happy he has been that day.

Next day, book goes back to school. Stickers/ stamp/ smiley face etc.

If he has x number of smiles per day / week then he gets a treat. Not necessarily monetary. Maybe he gets to pick a special trip out for the two of you, or a special DVD and his favourite flavour of microwave popcorn etc.

This way, you can keep a track of his day to day behaviour. If he has behaved, he will be proud to show you. I don't believe a 7 year old doesn't want to please adults. People of all ages want praise, and it's especially important to children.

He does do his homework!!

If I had known what was going on at school I would have taken action before now. However if no one tells me then how am I supposed to know? Like I keep saying he settled down and had a very good year 2. I assumed the same had happened in year 3. Nothing in his December school report to cause me any concerns at all.

We have a homework diary. He writes what homework he has to do and I sign it. If he is getting detention I would expect that to be noted in the homework diary (it was last term but nothing for this term).

Mollie you said yesterday that you knew he'd had many more detentions

Mollie at least 3 teachers and 2 SENCOs have told you whats going on at school ...you are choosing to ignore it

He does follow my instructions. He doesn't have a choice where that's concerned

Sorted then. "DS, do everything your teacher tells you to do, even if you don't want to do it".

mrz I assumed he was having detentions based on his behaviour. His teacher didn't mention detentions at parents' evening, I just assumed.

jalapeno - he follows my instructions at home! I have told him that but ultimately I'm not in the classroom and if the teacher doesn't tell me about his behaviour then not sure what I'm supposed to do about it? My powers of telepathy are lacking!