Lack of discipline in schools is the fault of head teachers

[GooseyLoosey]

I was listening to the radio yesterday and the Chairman of the National Association of Head Teachers was being interviewed (about an OECD report that smaller class sizes do not corelate to better education, but that's a whoel other thread). He said that poor discipline in schools was not the fault of parents or due to any societal trends but due to poor head teachers.

He argued that what maintained discipline in a school were effective sanctions put in place by the head which all teachers imposed and which the head back them up with. If a head cannot impose discipline, the implication was that they were ineffective and weak.

Do you agree with this? There is a huge bullying problem in my son's school and I was recently told by a teacher that they "just did not know what to do". That seemed wrong to me at the time and was the first time that I have really questioned the management of the school as it does not appear to me that that should ever be an appropriate response.

mrz why is it unreasonable of me to assume that he had continued in year 3 as he was in year 2? Why should I listen to a senco who wants to slap my son (who has now retired). Why shouldn't I listen to the senco who says my son is a delight to teach?

The tests they did in year 1 showed him to be very able indeed. Why is he now bottom of the class when he was top third in year 2?

MollieO I feel very sorry for your son

Mollie, your teacher HAS now told you about his behaviour. The question is, what do you do now?

What consequences have you agreed with your son for his behaviour starting from tomorrow?

When are you making a follow-up appointment with his teacher to find out whether he has started behaving better in school?

When did he tell you that he had done his best in the test for his new school but was not working in his current school? Has that too only come to light now? Or have you in fact had quite a lot of indications that all is not well which you haven't picked up on until it was laid out in black and white for you at parents' evening?

MollieO Sun 11-Mar-12 17:48:23

The tests they did in year 1 showed him to be very able indeed. Why is he now bottom of the class when he was top third in year 2?

Because he chooses not to work and you support that choice

I really like junipers suggestions. This isn't a homework diary, it's effectively a behaviour book.

Look, you're probably feeling like lots of people are having a go at you. You're doing your best in difficult circumstances. It's a tough gig, being a parent and you only get one shot at it.

You need strategies to move your son's behaviour and attainment forward or nothing is going to change. Praise and reinforcing the rules, ie sanctions, if needed.

Unfortunately in life there are people we click with, others we don't. In a workplace we have to suck it up and work with all positively, this is the same for a child in a school environment.

Mollie sorry but you keep contradicting yourself.

You say earlier in this thread that you just found out this parents' evening that your DH is not behaving well at school.

Yet there are loads of threads by you about his behaviour in the past.

I apologise for searching but I was when I clicked on the link someone else posted earlier which contradicted what you said on this thread and I couldn't help myself.

You say further up on this thread: "The other thing I found odd was how this all came as a huge surprise [to you]." ie that the teacher should have told you before. But she DID - you started a thread about it.

There is another thread about parents' evening when you express disbelief that the teacher says all the other teachers say the same about your DS - when your OP in the thread above clearly says that he has been the same with every teacher he has ever had - so you say it to Mumsnet but when the teacher says it to you, you go .

I really shouldn't kick you when you are down but you seriously need a reality check. Your DS has been misbehaving for ages. The school has been talking to you about it for ages. For your DS's sake you need to stop pretending this is the first you have ever heard of it.

But he doesn't follow your instructions at home if he is slating his teacher with your blessing and then going into school and behaving badly there. You tell him he must do everything the teacher says and you will be checking with her via email every Friday, you are on her side and he must comply or he doesn't get any treats all weekend. And then you actually follow up on it. It's what I would be doing. If you don't feel he should be doing anything she says because she is in some way "disrespecting" him there are serious issues at the root of this and he won't be able to function at any school.

If you don't feel he should be doing anything she says why are you wasting your money sending him there?

It really doesn't matter how long ago you knew.You know now and since he always follows your instructions at home you need to get tough and insist he follows them when at school.
I would suggest a behaviour book where the school writes down his behaviour each session, and playtimes, and you make sure that he knows he has to get good reports each day.

Up until last Thursday I thought he was going well in year 3. He had no problems since the first term of year 2. He did well in yr 2. Only issue in October was talking in class. Nothing since then. Good school report in December. Some detentions in term 1 of year 3. Nothing this year to indicate he wasn't behaving himself nor doing well academically. No indication at all before last Thursday. Then told big big problems, failing completely, can't understand what he reads, does poorly in tests, below average, practically bottom of the class, nowhere near on track for year four and not likely to get to where he needs to be.

As I keep saying, and no one answers, wouldn't you have expected the teacher to have contacted me? Haven't I the right to be concerned and alarmed or because he didn't to his homework in part of year one and the beginning of year 2 means I should just accept that I don't deserve to be told?

MollieO I suggest you read some of your own posts over the past 4 years
for example After the rubbish spouted by ds's teacher at the last parents' evening I'm planning to give this term's a miss. either you have a memory problem or

Maybe I should have followed my own advice. Still doesn't explain why his teacher hasnt contacted me this year to tell me he was failing completely, or if he was failing last term why it wasn't mentioned in his school report. Why tell me that he does very well in tests if that wasn't actually true? I realise I have lots of questions and I'm hoping the head can help. Telling me that ds did no tests in year 2 and has done no tests in year 3 isn't honest or helpful. She should be more than willing to demonstrate to me how badly ds is doing. Id also like to know why ds's year 2 teacher said they did SATs equivalent tests when this teacher said they definitely didn't.

Probably because she realises that she would be wasting her breath just as I have realised that it is a waste of time responding to you here.
As to honesty I don't think you are being honest with yourself. Your son and his teacher have my sympathy.

MollieO what do you want us to say?

Either you are winding us up or you are determined not to see the problem here.

Yes, you have the right to be concerned and alarmed but you have to take responsibility for your son's behaviour and do your damndest to improve it, for his sake. It doesn't matter who told you, when you were told, what they said or whether they shout or not but you know now that your DS is misbehaving and has a poor attitude to work and authority and you don't seem to be bothered by that or the negative impact that will have on his future at all. In fact you almost seem proud that he is challenging authority.

It all just seems so desperately sad and preventable, please don't stick your head in the sand about it.

Before last Thursday his teacher wouldn't know what I thought of her. Ds doesn't know what I think of her either. As far as she knew she had my full support (which she did). Outside parents evenings i never see her.

I have said to ds that if she shouts at him he must have done something to deserve it. I do think it is odd to tell a parent that their child is just one of those who does well in tests without considering why that might be. I also think it is odd to effectively accuse the deputy head of making up test results (which is what she did and one of the things I will be raising with the head).

Maybe they have suddenly only started doing SATs equivalent tests in the current year 2 as one of my friends overheard a very animated conversation between the yr 2 teachers saying that the entire year is below average and that will bring the test results down.

Hopefully I shall sort out what is going on. I can only compare parents evenings to appraisals. I've always been taught that nothing should come as a surprise.

I fear you might have been told numerous times, but just not heard.

In the same way, I think a lot of the people on this thread are saying similar things, but you're not hearing us.

A search revealed that parents evening was Nov not Oct and her opening words were "Ds winds up me, other teachers and some of his classmates" Not the sort of comment I'd expect from a teacher. Neither would I expect a comment telling me he does very well in tests without some underlying consideration of why that may be (that he probably does pay attention but is bored). I stand by my 'rubbish' comment.

I also think it odd that an experienced teacher could be 'wound up' by a 7 year old. Surely that is something that is more likely at secondary school?

Despite how she is to ds, ds insisted on getting a card and a box of chocolates (both paid for out of his pocket money) earlier this term when his teacher was away from school for a week because of a family bereavement.

I completely take responsibility for my ds's behaviour. That is a given. There is nothing I can do about his behaviour if I am not told about it! As of last Thursday I have been told there is a problem. After the day from hell at work on Friday I emailed the head on Saturday to arrange a meeting to discuss ds's behaviour and negative progress. Not much more I can do. I would rather have done this earlier in the term but I couldn't as I didn't know.

His teacher doesn't seem keen to do anything either - she seemed happy to leave things until the exam results in July. I don't think that is acceptable.

I'd also add that ds was told after the last parents' evening to buck his ideas up and improve his behaviour. Until last Thursday I assumed he had.

Is this private education MollieO? If so-why are you paying for it?

juniper there were no problems from middle of first term of year 2 to beginning of year 3. I assumed issues discussed at first year 3 parents' evening were settling in issues (as the year 2 insisted ds had at the beginning of year 2) and would resolve themselves as they had in year 2. No problems since then, nothing. Nothing in the school report to indicate any major problems. Nothing this term at all. No struggling with homework or reading. No lack of enthusiasm about going to school (opposite in fact). How am I supposed to know that there are current problems?

exotic he is at private school as it is costs the same as state plus CM, although that will change by the time he gets to year 5 when the cost will be slightly more.

Despite what he thinks of his teacher he is very happy at the school.

I tried my hardest to understand what ds's teacher said to me last week. I tend to repeat back in my own words what someone says to me so I know I've understood what they've said. When I did that with ds's teacher she said I was putting words in her mouth and no matter how I tried to explain that I was simply trying to understand what she was saying she kept saying the same thing. In the end (after about 7 minutes - I reckon she must have spent the first minute laughing about ds possibly changing schools) I said that I thought it would be better to arrange a meeting with the head and she agreed.

I wouldn't pay for something that you are not happy with.
I would treat tomorrow as the first day, forget what went before and make sure that he behaves himself. Ask the school for a home/school record and make sure your DS knows that he has to have a good report every day signed by his teacher.

It is great that you have a meeting. Hopefully things will improve.

Do you have a friend or relative that will tell you how it is but with love and you would respect them? Could you take them to the meeting? I suspect a lot of this is due to the school telling you stuff that is lost in translation as you are getting hung up on all the wrong things.