Lack of discipline in schools is the fault of head teachers

[GooseyLoosey]

I was listening to the radio yesterday and the Chairman of the National Association of Head Teachers was being interviewed (about an OECD report that smaller class sizes do not corelate to better education, but that's a whoel other thread). He said that poor discipline in schools was not the fault of parents or due to any societal trends but due to poor head teachers.

He argued that what maintained discipline in a school were effective sanctions put in place by the head which all teachers imposed and which the head back them up with. If a head cannot impose discipline, the implication was that they were ineffective and weak.

Do you agree with this? There is a huge bullying problem in my son's school and I was recently told by a teacher that they "just did not know what to do". That seemed wrong to me at the time and was the first time that I have really questioned the management of the school as it does not appear to me that that should ever be an appropriate response.

Obviously I cannot make, and am not making, a judgement in this case where I would never have the information to do so reliably.

However, when children who are intelligent and capable don't work for particular teachers, it is not necessarily as easy as saying that the child must be forced to work by hook or by crook.

No-one is saying he must be forced, just that he has to realise there are consequences if he doesn't and these are conseuences he has brought upon himself by his attitude.

The point is Bonsoir he hasn't worked for any teacher and he wouldn't do homework for his mum either...

mrz that isn't true. He worked hard in year 2 and got decent results (although according to year 3 teacher he didn't do any tests in year 2 ). Year 1 and year 3 teachers are very shouty. Year 1 teacher lost her voice in second week of term she shouted so much. Personally I don't think that is acceptable. I had to force the issue in year 1 to get him assessed, year 1 teacher offered nothing and no support.

Very similar to year 3 only year 3 teacher has let things drift for 6 months without saying anything. I cannot understand that and I can only assume she cba where ds is concerned. I am pretty certain that if I said I was removing him at Easter she would be delighted. If she was bothered then surely she would have contacted me? Am I wrong in thinking that there should be no surprises at parents' evening?

Not all teachers are good at their jobs. I know that a third of the class has a problem with the teacher (and maybe more than that, those are just the ones I know about). That seems rather a lot to me.

As for homework, there has been no issue in year 3 at all. He doesn't seem to struggle with it. It does seem very basic and from what I'm told it is the same as the other boys are getting. Like I keep saying if you are good teacher and you have a problem with a child wouldn't you contact the parents to discuss what support they need? If they cannot read then wouldn't you be offering support? If they are so far behind the rest of the class, wouldn't you be offering support?

MollieO you posted on MN
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1075304-6-yr-old-school-behaviour-apparently-I-need-counselling/AllOnOnePage#22055252

Yes, he needs to learn that working hard at school isn't something he can pick and choose at.
BUT, I too would have serious concerns about this teacher if all you say is true, especially if I was paying for the privilege.
It is not good practice to say she intends to carry on exactly as she has, even if she knows she's not motivating her pupils. If he is playing up (and I'm not excusing that for one moment) she needs to be finding ways to deal with it, not washing her hands of it, and telling him to get a book out if he's finished the work. How about giving him a more challenging activity to get his teeth into? I'm sorry to say, but in the state sector such practice would be hammered - by the Head (if they're up to scratch) the SIP and Ofsted.
In our school, any behaviour slip (detailing the 'offence' and action taken by the school) that is issued has to be signed and acknowledged by the parent before the child is allowed back into class.
Likewise it's not good practice to dole out endless worksheets for him to plod through. No wonder he's not engaged.
I would be asking the school how you can all work together to get him back on track. Either this teacher is right and he's struggling (in which case can she explain why his workbooks don't appear to show it), or the previous teacher assessed him inaccurately. Which is it?

I'd add that at the first parents evening this academic year I was told that ds did very well in tests even though he didn't appear to pay attention all the time. 'Maybe he is just one of those children who does very well in tests'. Isn't that an odd comment for a teacher to make. Shouldn't she be thinking that obviously ds is paying attention if he can answer the questions in tests?

The more I think about it the more I am and the more I hope the head can throw some light on what needs to be done.

Accepting that, as you feel, this teacher isn't one of the best then on a pretty basic level, if your son cba, why should the teacher? perhaps she feels her efforts are best addressed at those who do try their hardest.

mrz his year 2 teacher staked her professional reputation on ds not needing an EP report or extra support. There have been no homework issues in year 3 at all.

As a teacher wouldn't you have contacted the parents between October and March if you had concerns?

I'd add that the senco who told me I needed counselling was banned from seeing ds as she wrote to me telling me he needed to be slapped. The other senco described ds as 'a ray of sunshine and a pleasure to teach'. They were doing a half hour lesson each with him and doing the same work. Like I said, I think he is quite a marmite child.

snowball wouldn't you expect a teacher to contact you if she had problems with your dc? Or would you expect her to leave it 6 months and discuss it at parents' evening?

Why on earth is your son still at this school?

Good point. He had a very good year 2. First parents' evening of year 3 was positive - academically very able, very good test results, a bit distracting. I assumed he would settle down as he did in year 2. I had no concerns at all before last Thursday.

snowball no teacher worth his/her salt can take such an attitude. Regardless if the attitude of the child or parent we have to do the best we can for all the children we teach. Or answer to those on high.

~MollieO I would be phoning you every single day if the picture you are painting is anything to go by.

Exactly, mrz I've heard of parents, when told their child is not performing whose first question is, "why have we not been informed about this before?" (even if it's a recent thing).
I'm usually hot to defend teachers on these threads but, regardless of this child's attitude/behaviour, this does not reflect at all well on the teacher or school.

Of course we do, but the OP seems to think that this teacher ISN'T "worth her salt" As we seem to be going round and round in circles here I'm trying to see if there is a way out!

mrz you sound like the sort of teacher I would welcome. I reckon I'd be the same if I were a teacher! I just found her whole attitude rather odd and I'm just guessing that she cba where ds is concerned as surely if she was bothered she would be calling me. She never has.

snowball but you seemed to be suggesting that this teacher probably wasn't bothering with the child because he wasn't bothering. As if that were somehow excusable. Apologies if I misread it.

However clam a number of teachers have told MollieO over a period of 3 years or more and she has chosen to ignore them ...and make excuses about her child's behaviour

As far as we can tell, it's a crap school, with crap teachers, a relience on worksheets and workbooks, with little or no parental feeedback, a senco that would be sacked anywhere else and what's more, the OP is paying for this!

Absolutely, snowball. But I bet they wear smart blazers!

mrs I haven't read any of mollie's previous threads, although I've seen them referred to on here.

believe me MollieO I wouldn't be too happy to get the child you describe. I hope you are doing him a disservice in your posts.

Ditto to mrz - though I do wonder whether this kind of 'princely little lordling' behaviour and 'it's the teacher's fault not my child's' is common in some schools? Certainly there are one or two privately educated children of my acquaintance who display a similar ... less than pleasant .... attitude towards their teachers and a couple of parents who see all fault on the school's side and no fault at all with their own child or parenting.

I really can't work out how to read this situation. Either the school is poor - poor at handling SEN or more able children, poor behaviour management, poor leadership in managing staff, poor communication with parents - or we have a child who doesn't behave and a parent who backs the child up in this by blaming the teacher. It's one of those situations where one would love to hear the other side of the story and to meet the child in question.