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Primary education

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Original poster

The school is making my 4 years old to sing gospels, how to get out of this?

338 replies

Lokova · 02/03/2012 20:07

My 4 years old DS is singing:

"My God is good, good, God.
Yes, he is..."

I asked why he sings this and apparently the whole school is singing this in assembly. For Harvest assembly all pupils were made to read a prayer from the screen. This is a non religious, local community school. My elder DS went there and there was no such thing. It was perfectly secular.

I don't wish to offend or be unkind to anyone, but it is offensive and unkind for the school to do this to our family. Now I need to tell him not to sing such things and to explain to a 4 years old that the teachers are wrong to make him say such words etc. He would want to join with his peers. This is very wrong. We should not be in this position.

What is the legal position on collective worship? Can they just take over the assembly and the whole school like this to exclude secular pupils?
Surely religious freedoms don't involve the freedom to force-feed and brainwash secular children into religion.

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 04/03/2012 08:15

Hi seeker-you have much more time if you stay off!
Determined to limit time.Grin
This sort of problem turns up every few months. Schools should explain the various education acts to new parents and they wouldn't be under the misapprehension that schools are secular.

seeker · 04/03/2012 08:23

Feenie- I calling you to explain that to q 4 year old for whom the teacher is the font of all knowledge.

It is so ridiculous and archaic that there has to be a Christian element to state education. You're not expected to pray before you have your appendix out, or pay your income tax or take your driving test!

seeker · 04/03/2012 08:24

Challenge you, that should be.

exoticfruits · 04/03/2012 08:27

It only becomes exciting to a 4 yr old if it gets mother all upset! I doubt whether it makes any impression at all otherwise! I have yet to meet a single person who became a Christian through school assemblies!

seeker · 04/03/2012 08:30

The question is not whether or not anyone becomes Christian through assemblies. The question is why there should be the practice of Christianity at all in a state school.

Feenie · 04/03/2012 08:36

My 4 year old didn't have the awareness to pray, and now in y1 has the sense to just bow his head. He accepts that 'some people believe', and says he doesn't.

Don't see the harm.

MyHeartBelongsToKermit · 04/03/2012 08:43

I think having a mother that pulls you out of specific parts of the school day is far more oppressive.

HandMadeTail · 04/03/2012 08:45

Not sure if you are still checking this thread, but just in case.......

  1. If you withdraw your child, he will be embarrassed, and may have to explain to the other children why he doesn't go to assembly.
  1. Remember, forbidden fruit can be very enticing. Your actions may have the reverse effect of what you are trying to achieve.
  1. Christian values of forgiveness, kindness to others etc are things you would want the school to be teaching him.
  1. The teachers are probably pretty secular themselves and are probably not trying to indoctrinate your child.
  1. Some of the stories are pretty cool, and knowledge of them may be useful to him when he is on University Challenge.

Hope this is useful.:)

seeker · 04/03/2012 08:51

"3. Christian values of forgiveness, kindness to others etc are things you would want the school to be teaching him."

No. I want the school to instilled values of forgiveness, kindness to others etc. These are NOT exclusively Christian values!

HandMadeTail · 04/03/2012 09:00

Hi, seeker, sorry, if my post was unclear. I didn't mean they are exclusively Christian values, I meant that they are things that you wouldn't mind your DS learning about.

You will find that there will be RE lessons which will teach that other faiths also have these values. And if you are atheist, or agnostic (as I am) you will be able to demonstrate these values to him in your daily life, to show that people who are not religious can also have these values.

seeker · 04/03/2012 09:02

That doesn't answer the question- why is education the only state provided service you have to be at least a nominal Christian to access?

HandMadeTail · 04/03/2012 09:06

I wasn't trying to answer that question. Lobby your MP if you like. I was just making some points about the system we have, and your current options.

ApplesinmyPocket · 04/03/2012 09:28

"Does no one think it at all odd that, in order to fully participate in the life of a state school, a child is expected to pray?"

I do - hear the words 'collective worship' and wince. Religion should be a matter of personal and private choice, not uneasily interwoven with education, so on the one hand our children are learning history, science, how the world works, and the next solemnly kneeling down to thank an unseen Being for making every flower and tree.

For now, however, OP must put up with it or withdraw the child and if she/he/we feel strongly enough we should be gathering support to get religion out of schools, it's definitely time.

The singing itself wouldn't bother me. No need to pass up on beautiful and fun music whatever its roots, magic dragons, singing teapots, invisible deities, the lot.

exoticfruits · 04/03/2012 10:01

The question is why there should be the practice of Christianity at all in a state school.

All to do with C of E being the state religion. If you want to change it then you need to do something other than moan-join the secular society. While the Queen is head of state and church and the Prime Minister chooses bishops etc there won't be much change.
Gospel songs and hymns are part of general knowledge. I can't see the harm in a DC getting all sides-they will make up their own mind when older and no 40yr old says 'I am a Christian because my mother told me to be one' or I am an atheist because my mother told me to be'!!
I took my DCs to church and all 3 have rejected it-what I can't see is why it matters-I always assumed it was their choice and not mine. They never ever mentioned school assemblies-if I didn't know better (having been a supply teacher in their school) I would have assumed that they didn't have hymns, Christian stories etc.

BonfireOfKleenex · 04/03/2012 16:34

"Does no one think it at all odd that, in order to fully participate in the life of a state school, a child is expected to pray?"

Yes. Especially now that school intakes are so mixed in terms of their ethnic and religious (and non-religious) backgrounds.

And it just feels very inappropriate to me that the state takes my child and teaches them to pray. That should be a family matter, not a state education duty.

msjudgeypants · 04/03/2012 17:30

I hate this "I did religious assembly and hymns in school and it never did me any harm" argument. It's the same reasoning that routinely gets dismissed when it's applied in the smacking debate. And would anybody care to apply the same logic to not using a car seat?

bemybebe · 04/03/2012 17:39

it is about time to stop any religious worship in state funded educational establishments
there are absolutely no justifications for it

exoticfruits · 04/03/2012 17:50

No one is teaching them to pray! A prayer is said and they can join in if they wish by saying 'amen'-this is generally made clear-they do not have to pray.
Maybe your DC wants to-they are not you and have their own opinions.
When you have a DC you do not know what you are getting-there is no guarantee that they all think the same as their parents- I don't even see why it is desirable. The best thing to teach your child is to think for themselves and question everything-including mother.

seeker · 04/03/2012 18:17

So you would be happy with a bit of devil worship in school? The odd libation to the Goddess? Seriously, would you?

I just don't understand why the should be religion in public life at all.

seeker · 04/03/2012 18:20

And they do teach them to pray! Both my children came home from their non faith primary schools showing me how to fold their hands and close their eyes and say Amen!

Feenie · 04/03/2012 18:25

Blimey. I have never worked anywhere that did that.

bemybebe · 04/03/2012 18:28

seeker 100% with you on this
"No one is teaching them to pray! "
"And they do teach them to pray! Both my children came home from their non faith primary schools showing me how to fold their hands and close their eyes and say Amen!"

Who do they think they take for idiots? And I am not even an atheist, I am an agnostic and humanist, but I absolutely categorically object to indoctrination of the young minds by the people who by virtue of their position hold an authority.

And why should I be withdrawing them from an assembly where other important things are discussed. This is completely inappropriate suggestion.

My dsc went through the UK system and all it taught them is to ignore hypocrisy. A valuable lesson in life Hmm

BonfireOfKleenex · 04/03/2012 18:59

"No one is teaching them to pray! A prayer is said and they can join in if they wish by saying 'amen'-this is generally made clear-they do not have to pray."

So what is the point of it all then?

And how is a four year old, or even an eight or nine year old, supposed to make genuine sense of the 'choice' to join in or not?

BonfireOfKleenex · 04/03/2012 19:02

And it is ridiculous to say that children are NOT being taught to pray - they are in school and the whole thing is led by their teachers Hmm

exoticfruits · 04/03/2012 19:14

I think you are missing the point that it is generally led by teachers with no faith themselves. Generally they don't have to pray-they have to respect others and sit quietly.