The school is making my 4 years old to sing gospels, how to get out of this?

[Lokova]

My 4 years old DS is singing:

"My God is good, good, God.
Yes, he is..."

I asked why he sings this and apparently the whole school is singing this in assembly. For Harvest assembly all pupils were made to read a prayer from the screen. This is a non religious, local community school. My elder DS went there and there was no such thing. It was perfectly secular.

I don't wish to offend or be unkind to anyone, but it is offensive and unkind for the school to do this to our family. Now I need to tell him not to sing such things and to explain to a 4 years old that the teachers are wrong to make him say such words etc. He would want to join with his peers. This is very wrong. We should not be in this position.

What is the legal position on collective worship? Can they just take over the assembly and the whole school like this to exclude secular pupils?
Surely religious freedoms don't involve the freedom to force-feed and brainwash secular children into religion.

This is making religion the default 'truth' which one must opt-out of later, which is very difficult for many people.

Sorry, I don't buy this at all. People who describe themselves as having faith is at an all time low. But most adults in this country will have had religion, prayers and songs at school.

Ah shut up

Said with Towie tones

Yank him out, you sound like my friend who insists her children are to not believe in God so that they can have freedom of choice in whether to believe or not when they grow up.
But she's removed the choice pretty much as she's infact taught them her beliefs. . . . So NO freedom of choice then!!

Helps later on with references in English literature too. Stuffed with Bible references it is, at least up until the last century.

Are you talking to me or the Op, QOD?

Sorry, I don't buy this at all. People who describe themselves as having faith is at an all time low.

78% of the population of England and Wales describe themselves as having faith - three quarters of the population + in 2011, that figure isn't low

Surely to bring him up with an entirely secular view of life is, in itself, indoctrination. If you truly want your child to figure out what he believes and to not be indoctrinated you also need to include the concept of other faiths and religions and not be so dogmatic yourself OP.

The only bigots I have come across recently are from the secular / atheist camp and quite frankly I am fed up of having Richard Dawkins being shoved down my throat and actually feeling worried about expressing my own religious views less I should offend anyone.

Lokova - my DP agrees with you entirely. Ours DD's school does collective worship and is not a 'faith school' - she's 5 and cannot yet understand the difference between faith and facts. I feel more ambivalent about it, he would rather it did not happen.

onelittlefish - surely we are born neutral and therefore if we teach nothing it will not matter as god will present himself to the children without adult intervention

This has brightened my evening. Poor OP's oppressed 4 yr old. Utterly barking.

I was christened, attended Sunday school (CofE). However when it came to being confirmed when I was 11 I chose not to as I didn't believe in God. I don't think it has scarred me for life but then I'm tolerant of other's views both religious and political.

What sort of society would it be if you could just ban the things you don't like? Maybe the OP would be happier in somewhere like Syria?

ivy - but if you actively tell them there is no god?

We try very hard to be neutral. if DS came home and said God had made the world I would have a discussion with him about what others believe but I don't tell him he's wrong. Obviously at 5 he leans toward what he thinks we believe.

5 year olds hear a lot of stuff and believe a lot of stuff. i don't believe that if they believe something as a 5 year old the will believe it as an adult. The best gift for your child is an enquiring mind and the ability to think through the issue themselves (any advice on doing that anyone!). DS believes in the tooth fairy and in magic, I don't dissuade him but I fully expect him to figure out that the tooth fairy is really me soon enough!

If children are pulled out of a pointless activity, there is no harm in them having fun doing another pointless activity. (In this case, singing songs and reading poems.) If one thinks worship is not a pointless activity, then presumably one sends one's kids to a C of E or other faith school, or to church lessons on the weekend.

With ref to English Literature, RE should cover what's needed until university-level courses.

QOD, I don't know your friend, but I am puzzled at how not indoctrinating children with Christian faith is equivalent to forcing atheism on them. Do they not have RE in that school?

Offensive and unkind

Lordy!

why would we even talk about god? if we are neutral then there is no need to actively tell anyone there is no god, therefore children would be left to make up there own mind whether they beleive in god

Ivy - what do you say if the kids mention god though?

DS is the only one to mention god in our household! We don't tell him god doesn't exist, we also don't confirm that he does.

QOD's example was someone who actively told her children that there is no god so that they could make up their own mind - but that hasn't given them a neutral starting point

why do you need to say anything? Sometimes children need to talk about what they have on their minds - as parents we can listen, we don't have to talk back.

For each of the QOD's examples there will be 250,000 parents that do tell there children that god is out there, in church and ready to welcome them in.

OP - do you celebrate Christmas and Easter, and if so, on what grounds do you choose to mark and recognise these events?

Indeed - but if DS comes home and says "Did you know that God made the world and everything in it?" I don't see how giving alternatives to that view is indoctrinating

Or when he asks "what happens when we die?" I give him my atheist view but I also tell him what other people believe

Religion is tied up with all the big questions so it is hard to avoid!

When I was about 6 I was awarded a certificate for excellent religious knowledge from a visiting senior church man (CofE school)
I was a committed atheist. I just answered all his questions because no one else put their hands up and I want to do something more interesting.
I felt a right fraud when I got a certificate to myself as well as the usual class one.

Feenie - op

Everybody - yes, just made me laugh inside a bit. "I'm teaching my children's the truth, that there is no God, and then they can make up their own minds"
Umm but that's indeed, not neutral

And actually, I have no idea what my friends children do during R E !

Even as an Atheist, you can't say "Im teaching my DC the truth - there is no God" ... and your evidence for that is???

There may well be one! There may not. Just as a Christian may not have 'hard evidence' for his existance, you do not have hard evidence of his in-existance. You could teach your children the truth by saying "some people believe...I do not" and teaching them about different religions and the ability to make their own mind up...not be indoctrinated by anyone (the school or you)

"Did you know that God made the world and everything in it?"

Shall we go to the library and find a book about how the world might have been made? As no person living is really to sure about how it was all started

where's the OP gone?

can you let me know what the view is about what happens when we die for atheist?

where's the OP gone? gone to pray?

i don't think we're actually disagreeing here ivy!

by looking at the books and discussing you will have a range of views - religious and not. so god will come up within that framework. which is exactly what I do with DS