The school is making my 4 years old to sing gospels, how to get out of this?

[Lokova]

My 4 years old DS is singing:

"My God is good, good, God.
Yes, he is..."

I asked why he sings this and apparently the whole school is singing this in assembly. For Harvest assembly all pupils were made to read a prayer from the screen. This is a non religious, local community school. My elder DS went there and there was no such thing. It was perfectly secular.

I don't wish to offend or be unkind to anyone, but it is offensive and unkind for the school to do this to our family. Now I need to tell him not to sing such things and to explain to a 4 years old that the teachers are wrong to make him say such words etc. He would want to join with his peers. This is very wrong. We should not be in this position.

What is the legal position on collective worship? Can they just take over the assembly and the whole school like this to exclude secular pupils?
Surely religious freedoms don't involve the freedom to force-feed and brainwash secular children into religion.

op
chill ds went to a church primary as a small boy he sang hymms instead of nursery rhymes.
he is now 20 a metal head ans so far removed from that small child you would not believe it

They die screaming for a priest, Ivykaty

by looking at the books and discussing you will have a range of views

hmm see I would head straight to the science section of the children book section in the library and that would be that

As for death - well no one knows what happens and everyone has different hopes and dreams - no need to bring religion or atheist views into it it is the unknown and it can stay that way.

Athiests go to heaven like everyone else of course ivy

oh shit! I heard its no fun up there...

We remove our DC when the local vicar comes in once a week. If they were balancing it out with a Rabbi an Iman and a Buddhist I wouldn't mind so much.

They sit in the office with the JW kids and do puzzles, read books, play games.

I don't think you are being unreasonable at all OP, it's utter rubbish that children are still being taught songs about bloody nonscence.

I was invited in by the head to 'see' an assembly and allay my fears.

They were singing some wank song about thanking god for the food on the table and the clothes on their backs, I was apocalyptic

And to the people who were asking about justifying celebrating Easter/Christmas. Well yes we do, in the sense that we celebrate EAster as spring coming and rebirth. And Christmas as a winter festival that brightens up the dead of winter (death like a crucifixion, funny the timings of Easter and Christmas no?)!

I really don't like the emphasis my DC's school place upon the Christian faith either, purely because I did not send them to a faith school, but to a county primary school. I would much prefer the school to cover all religions equally, but because the HT is Christian, that's not going to happen.

However, the OP sounds a bit loopy - I've never wanted to withdraw my DC from all the religious stuff but I can understand wanting there to be a healthy balance when it comes to teaching the children religion rather than shoving one faith down children's throats when most of them don't have a religion at all. It can sometimes feel more like an attempt to convert them rather than teach them.

ivy - you haven't met my DS! If I said 'nobody knows' he would ask me to guess! So I give him a range of thoughts that we can discuss.

I also think at that age it is pretty frightening to not have any ideas about what might happen - realising you are not immortal is bad enough but not even knowing what happens next is even worse!

We have a book on evolution, greek myths, norse myths and christian stories amongst others - he reads them like stories and I hope it is giving him the chance to think for himself.

I don't know what happens when you die - so there's not much point me telling him anything as fact!

We suggested to DS that he replace the word 'God' with 'dinosaur'. Everyone happy. His friends do it too.

My DS year 3 is always singing hymns of some sort. Some religious based, most PSHE based.

I am CofE, Christian but do not practice it as such by going to church, but we celebrate religious festivals and I explain to DS the connection with the bible. He has often already studied this at school and often lectures me!

I do emphasize that its a belief, and trust my DS to make his own mind up. And yes if he ever said he felt uncomfortable with hymns and collective worship I would withdraw him.

everybody My DS has decided he doesn't want to be buried in a coffin or set on fire so he's going to heaven when he dies. Just goes to show despite what children see, learn they'll make up their own mind in line with their own understanding of the world.

Dingbats. Your name is very apt.

Hasn't anyone noticed that Christian indoctrination doesn't work? My children were sent to faith schools, and taken to church. I now have three atheists and an agnostic. They have made up their own minds - I'm fine with that. It's a secular age. However, they have pointed out to me that they had an advantage when studying medieval history, literature, history of art, over fellow students who didn't know "the finer points of Churchieness" (son's words).

Again they are mostly Christian, as that is the law. Thy have to do 50% Christianity and 50% all other religions that make up.our country. I am a Christian, and don't agree with that, but it is law. So as an RE teacher I don't follow it to the letter. I make sure there is a mix.

If children are not taught about Christianity then they will remain ignorant about the much of the history and culture of Europe.

Saying this doesn't make me an indoctrinated Christian :)

The insistence that religion has monopoly over history, over good morals, over seasonal tree decorations and over eating chocolate is , well, :)
Learning about religious beliefs like you learn going to museums or reading a book is one thing, making children to say "My God is a good God" and recite prayers is another.
It crosses the line into forced choice of braking your dignity and integrity to remain within the mainstream or accept being singled out and marginalised. This is exactly like those Mao regimes work - making the children to recite in assembly the praise to ?our great leader?.
For a 4 years old to sit alone in back rooms isolated from his peers is a severe punishment for his parents beliefs. This is wrong.

Yes, but I really think you are over thinking things and making a massive mountain over a small molehill. The kid is 4 years old! In our school we had assembly, hymns and prayers up until sixth form (age 18), and this was just in a normal Welsh comprehensive. There is no one amongst my large group of school friends for whom this has resulted in then being a brainwashed godsquadder. It was just part of the daily routine. We are certainly not Maoists either. Any people of faith who I know have that faith because of a strong family background of it, certainly not because they went to assembly at school.

None of the few (very sensible) religious people I know insist they have ownership of morality.

I feel for the OP. It is crazy that in this day and age we are still making children sing Christian songs in school. The number of people (especially children) who follow Christianity is falling rapidly. These sort of song have no place in our state schools. If you want a faith school they should all be privatly funded.

Alas, there are far too many people out there who are either too lazy to do anything about it or still like to think of themselves as Christian yet aren't exacty practising.

"I was apocalyptic"

Ariel - teaching children about Christianity and about its influence on the history and culture of Europe is very different from making them sing songs about a diety they may or may not care to believe in - especially in a non-faith school.

I'm all for teaching children about some of the delights of christianity through the ages in Europe - we could start with the lovely habit of burning people at the stake...

As far as DD is concerned I wouldn't withdraw her from assemblies where there was the odd hymn (I'd prefer something not too happy clappy), christmas carol and perhaps the Lord's Prayer, but I don't think it's particularly appropriate in a non-faith school. If I knew that a school was putting emphasis on the worship bit rather than a generally nod in the direction of the requirement it would definitely make me less interested in sending my child there.

As a Humanist and a member of the National Secular Society it also irks me greatly that under current UK law it would not be possible for secularists and Humanists to set up a school based on their ethos as they couldn't then tick the 'daily act of worship of broadly Christian nature' box.

I have only just noticed that we actually sing this same song at school, but our version is:

"Our dog is a good dog,
Yes he is
Our dog is a good dog," etc.

I wonder which version is the original?

It is not oppressive, do you understand anything at all about religious oppression, Catholics in this country were oppressed in the 17th century, burned at the stake, etc. That is oppression. Just withdraw your child and stop being so vitriolic about it.

The op might have expressed herself a little strangely.
However.

Does no one think it at all odd that, in order to fully participate in the life of a state school, a child is expected to pray?

Let's be clear, because I know what happens on these threads, I am not talking about learning about Christianity, that is of course, part of a fully rounded education. I am talking about actually doing Christianity.

I am also aware of the law (although strictly, the law only demands that 51% of the daily collective acts of worship are "broadly Christian in nature"

There are no secular state schools in England. A child isn't expected to pray, but a child is expected to sit quietly while others do. There will be prayers and hymns in assembly. You have the right to withdraw your DC from assemblies.

Hello, exotic! Long time no see!

Does no one think it at all odd that, in order to fully participate in the life of a state school, a child is expected to pray?

They aren't though, in reality. Bowing your head in respect of the concept of prayer (to anyone) isn't necessarily praying.