Inner city primary - 'difficult' intake. WWYD?

[Shambolicaholic]

We'll be applying for primary for DC1 next time around and so are starting to seriously think about it all and planning some school visits. We have a state primary rated as 'good' by OFSTED almost at the end of the road. Common sense has always told us that this should be the right place to send our kids - they can walk there, it's on our way to/from work, everyone else there will be v v local etc etc. We don't want to go private, as we think its really important to support the state system and couldn't really afford to do so anyway, even if we wanted to (not to mention that we'd have had to put DC's name down for the local private schools pre-birth...!). Although, if we didn't holiday/buy any luxuries/eat anything other than baked beans then just maybe we could.....

We had a look around the local primary last September and liked it. The children who took us round were lovely and it seemed like a nice place - although tbh we don't really know what we're looking for. Its results are ok - not stellar, not terrible, but ok. It has 40% free school meals and 40% who don't have English as a first language. The issue that concerns most of our neighbours (who've all got their small children registered for local private schools and think we're a bit odd not doing the same) is that a big big big chunk of the intake is from a very rough housing estate nearby. When I say rough, I mean rough. 2 murders on the streets in the past 6 months, should give you the idea. Now, I know that many/most of the kids/families related to the school are not, themselves, rough - we are involved in the local community and many local families are recent immigrants who are desperate for their kids to have a good education. However, it is reasonable to assume that a significant minority of the kids in each class will have tough/chaotic homelife and parents who couldn't care less about their children's education (unauthorised absences are also relatively high). DC1 is bright, articulate and although its early to say, I think he'll be reading a bit when he gets to school. He's been at a great nursery since he was 6 months, has good social skills and loves to learn. I have no doubt that there'll be others at the primary school who are as good and better than him, regardless of their background, however I also know for sure that many children arrive at the school with little English and having had no experience of pre-school or education before that point.

There are a couple of outstanding primaries nearby - our next nearest schools - but we do not have a hope in hell of getting our DCs into those as the catchments are miniscule. Only other local options are faith, and we don't do religion. So, our options are 1) this school 2) kill ourselves financially to do independent, but I'm not sure we'd get a place anywhere even if we could find the money for 2 DCs, 3) move house out of London which we are dead set against. My definite preference is 1 but I'm worried that we're going for the easiest option for us and not the best option for the DCs. This is not a school with a chunk of middle class parents sticking by it and I'm - very frankly - a bit worried that our DCs might stick out a bit and suffer socially as a result. I so want it to work out, but don't want to look back in 10 years and have big regrets.

I am really interested to know what you'd do in this situation and I'm especially interested to hear any experiences from people who have their children at similar sounding schools. How has it been and is there anything I should be looking out for / asking about?

Secondly, you mentioned you applied for private schools. Check to see if they offer bursaries, new legislations has meant private schools have had to start offering bursaries in order to maintain their charitable status. One of DD's nursery got offered a bursary for a private school from reception to year 6 - this means she will get a private education for free. This is worth looking into - as again many people aren't aware these sort of options exist.

Usualsuspect - please don't think I make such presumptions about estates. As I mentioned in my OP, the 'estate' is rough (this is a matter of fact - it has a notorious reputation for drugs gangs and has had two murders recently, including one in mid afternoon). I believe and have seen from my own experience in the area that many of those who live on the estate are fab people. Others are more troubled. The people I know though don't have children of similar ages to my DC and I've no way of knowing what the reality will be in the particular class my DCs end up in. Nothing wrong with staffies either .

Would love to do some reading with the kids but not sure how I can make this work as have a FT job. Will look into doing it on the odd occasion if I take holiday though - do schools do this or do you have to make a more regular commitment?

OP, at my kids' school you can just drop in to read. They also have 'inspire' workshops (where you participate in a literacy/numeracy lesson) which are organised months in advance. I think this is quite common in primary schools now. My dcs' dad can book time off in advance for the workshops.

Shambolicaholic, most schools will have sessions like rookery describes. At our first choice school, parents can organise a activity for example a friend of mind organised a pottery workshop for her dd's class when she had a week off. Most schools are happy of the help to be honest so if you got CRB checked it is likely that coming into listen to children read when you are available would be alright with the school. This is probably the only way you will get to see a school on a normal day and see the school as it is - to get a real feel for it.

Just to be clear, at my dcs school you can come in to read with your own child but not with others. I was replying to OP's last comment about reading with the children - I assumed you meant with your own children? You don't need a CRB check for that, you just get a sticker from the desk and get escorted to the classroom. CRB rules have changed in the past year (although some schools haven't caught up with this yet). As to running workshops, you don't need a CRB check for that either - as long as there is another teacher/TA with you at all times you can work without a CRB check. (Not trying to be picky, TaAM, just want to relay most recent advice I've received as a writer in schools).

God, I'm boring myself. Goodnight. May all our children be happy.

We had the same dilemma - we live in inner city london and when we first moved and started to look at state schools then the school that on paper looked the best option didnt feel right at all when I looked round. We opted for the school that to me felt best, for a whole host of reasons - not least because I thought the Deputy HT who showed me round was fantastic - passionate, motivated, clearly had the respect and admiration of the pupils. Gut instinct counts for a lot. It had a good ofsted 2 years ago. I have just been looking at their latest set of test results and they have improved massively over the last two years. Its not perfect by any means, and, there are times when we do talk seriously about putting our children through private education - which would cripple us financially. However, as long as my daughter is at her current school then we will make the best of it by supporting the school in any way that we can and helping them to meet the high aspirations that they have for a very diverse set of pupils.

rookery, i think it's great that you are providing the most current information - don't mind that just didn't like my views/ experience being sneered at. At some of the schools i have worked with/at if parents have a CRB check they can read with other children not just their own. There is a scheme that has been set up in one of our local church schools where the elderly at the church give up one morning a week to listen to receptions/year ones read. I would inquire the worst they can say is no, so you might as well try.

Avocado - there's a boy at my kids' school who has done all sorts of horrible things - broken windows, jumped out of windows, thrown rubbish around a room, spat at everyone, hit TAs.... He doesn't come from a rough background. His parents are highly educated and very loving and reasonably strict and very consistent with him. He has ASD and ADHD, though and we have to work very hard with him to keep him on an even keel.

I spent time helping in couple of schools in a large city.
They knew their children could be difficult and had very firm procedures in place and being double form entry could stream English and Maths and they differentiated work without thinking about it.
One difficult child in my DDs rural primary can cause more havoc than 5 there.

Op, don't forget the Beavers waiting list!

Oh, and don't forget that many schools have things like summer fairs and performances that are open to the public- that's a good way of getting another perspective too.

Thebestisyettocome - I thhink you misunderstood my comment

My kids go to a EFL specialist school; we are 30%EFL. EFL can be good, but if EFLmkids are arriving beyond YR1, they take up amlot of the teacher's time. We also find that middle eastern boys are a discipline problem; there's a real element of the 'little prince' attitude from the parents. These same families are also reluctant to do playdates/birthday parties/help out with the PTA.

Our school is huge, and the shifting demographics mean that we now take in kids from the sink estates. While we don't have a major discipline problem, it's definitely these kids that are disruptive in class, and unable to focus on what they're doing. They also have those little hand-held computer things, TVs in bedrooms etc, and that sort of peer pressure is not nice when they're little. It makes playdates a bit tricky.

I would go to your school and ask to spend a day there. Sit for a couple of hours in Reception, Yr2 and Yr5/6. Look at hsow the kids behave. Can they sit and focus? Is there disruption? How does the teacher deal with it so that the other kids aren't distracted? Are the well-behaved kids just left to get on with it while the teacher spends most of her time with EFL/disruptive kids? How are the kids in Yr6? Hormonal and disrespectful? Or hormonal and genuinely interested in their work. Do they look enthusiastic or sullen? In Yr2 ask to see the extension work for brighter kids.

Regarding volunteering to read, not all schools will welcome "drop in" volunteers. Ours would require you to make a weekly commitment and get your CRB check before you can start. So it's worth a try, but don't be put off the school if they say no. Their policies may simply not allow it.

I definitely agree with the comment above about leadership. Our school has made huge improvements under new leadership. Many people say that they wouldn't have sent their children there, but were won over by the head teacher who absolutely knows what she is about and has transformed the place. A recent Ofsted inspector commented that the place was like a "stick of rock" - no matter who he spoke to - teachers, Governors, support staff, children - they all knew exactly what the ethos of the school was, what systems were in place to track progress, what expectations of behaviour etc. It makes for a very secure environment and I think those children who have a chaotic home life find it a safe place. They really raise their game when they are in school.

I should say that this also means that the impressions you get of children in the playground and on the streets do not necessarily match what you see in school. I go into school regularly as a volunteer. It is calm, orderly and happy. In the playground, there may be loud-mouthed mums sounding off at their kid, but the atmosphere in school is utterly different.

Agree don't just loiter at school gates - when I did that I was pretty alarmed. You don't notice the quieter parents, just the mouthy ones. And the mouthy ones when you get to know them tend to have hearts of gold. TBH, I was even more put off by school gates of our local private school with every mother in fur and driving a four by four, I'm sure they're equally delightful once you know them as individuals.

I am sorry Tilda was upset, but she must accept some responsibility for the way her remarks were received. She was not an entirely innocent victim of a baying mob!

Avocado - I can assure you that I am not being disingenous about our Lambeth school - it is not the only one, either, in our borough, where middle class families clamour for a place in an outstanding over-subscribed school where the significant majority of the intake come from an estate which features in the news every so often.

Making a general assumption about what these schools are like based on an incident 10 years ago is not a basis to call me a liar about what I have seen over 6 years in 'our' school.

The school is well managed, behaviour and relationships with pupils is managed extremely well, it has excellent results way aboove the national average despite having indices of disadvantage and deprivation way above the national average.

It can happen, and it often does. The OP is looking at a particular school.

Tiles started her post "As an educational psychologist.....". Then went on to talk about very bad behaviour in a school. The op had already said the school she was talking about had a good OFSTED and good behaviour, so not the same thing qt all. And her opener made it sound as if her comments were from a professional, not a personal point of view. And they were not remarks appropriate from an education professional, and she was rightly called on them.

To be fair, the murders didn't take place in the school!... and others being absent means smaller class sizes...

Tilda you have had a hard time on here. I would personally value your professional opinion as well as your personal opinion.

Unfortunately, as is usual, it all turns into a state v private bun fight, where anyone who is even slightly concerned that their children might get in with the wrong crowd, or fail to reach their full potential because of the the actions and behaviour of others, is accused of not wanting to mix with a diverse range of people.

Lots of research, spending time in the schools you considering and your gut instinct are the way forward. The school I work in is considered a "sink" estate school, we were recently graded "good and improving" by OFSTED and our behaviour management was graded outstanding. For the first time we have people from out of catchment applying for places. Many children leave in Year 8 at Level 7 in several subjects. An equal number barely make Level 3/4 however, and we have a lot of children on the Safeguarding watch-list.

It is a hard call OP. Go with your gut!

Who mentioned private vs state? What a very odd thing to say! What I took exception to as I have said before, was to a personal view being presented as a professional one.