Inner city primary - 'difficult' intake. WWYD?

[Shambolicaholic]

We'll be applying for primary for DC1 next time around and so are starting to seriously think about it all and planning some school visits. We have a state primary rated as 'good' by OFSTED almost at the end of the road. Common sense has always told us that this should be the right place to send our kids - they can walk there, it's on our way to/from work, everyone else there will be v v local etc etc. We don't want to go private, as we think its really important to support the state system and couldn't really afford to do so anyway, even if we wanted to (not to mention that we'd have had to put DC's name down for the local private schools pre-birth...!). Although, if we didn't holiday/buy any luxuries/eat anything other than baked beans then just maybe we could.....

We had a look around the local primary last September and liked it. The children who took us round were lovely and it seemed like a nice place - although tbh we don't really know what we're looking for. Its results are ok - not stellar, not terrible, but ok. It has 40% free school meals and 40% who don't have English as a first language. The issue that concerns most of our neighbours (who've all got their small children registered for local private schools and think we're a bit odd not doing the same) is that a big big big chunk of the intake is from a very rough housing estate nearby. When I say rough, I mean rough. 2 murders on the streets in the past 6 months, should give you the idea. Now, I know that many/most of the kids/families related to the school are not, themselves, rough - we are involved in the local community and many local families are recent immigrants who are desperate for their kids to have a good education. However, it is reasonable to assume that a significant minority of the kids in each class will have tough/chaotic homelife and parents who couldn't care less about their children's education (unauthorised absences are also relatively high). DC1 is bright, articulate and although its early to say, I think he'll be reading a bit when he gets to school. He's been at a great nursery since he was 6 months, has good social skills and loves to learn. I have no doubt that there'll be others at the primary school who are as good and better than him, regardless of their background, however I also know for sure that many children arrive at the school with little English and having had no experience of pre-school or education before that point.

There are a couple of outstanding primaries nearby - our next nearest schools - but we do not have a hope in hell of getting our DCs into those as the catchments are miniscule. Only other local options are faith, and we don't do religion. So, our options are 1) this school 2) kill ourselves financially to do independent, but I'm not sure we'd get a place anywhere even if we could find the money for 2 DCs, 3) move house out of London which we are dead set against. My definite preference is 1 but I'm worried that we're going for the easiest option for us and not the best option for the DCs. This is not a school with a chunk of middle class parents sticking by it and I'm - very frankly - a bit worried that our DCs might stick out a bit and suffer socially as a result. I so want it to work out, but don't want to look back in 10 years and have big regrets.

I am really interested to know what you'd do in this situation and I'm especially interested to hear any experiences from people who have their children at similar sounding schools. How has it been and is there anything I should be looking out for / asking about?

In answer to a couple of posters upthread, I have no idea if what my DD was asked to do was usual in schools. This certainly wasn't 'group work' as I understand it, and I don't think she was involved in marking. I just know that she hated it and it interfered with her learning. (eg other kids would constantly interrupt when she was writing to ask her how to spell things - I queried this with the teacher and was told that, yes, they had her permission to interrupt my DD whenever they need to.)

It wasn't really that huge an issue, and it certainly wasn't a major reason for removing her - I just mentioned it because one of the early comments talked about the more able pupils being roped in to help out and it gelled with my experiences.

rabbitstew I also have no idea how the school got its SATs results. I'd have thought that getting able puils (who are going to pass their SATs whatever you do with them) to help the less able ones probably would lead to good SATs results, so I don't really understand your scepticism.

I agree that you should go with your instinct. If you liked the school and got a warm feeling from it, then the chances are it will be fine.

We live just outside London, and I looked around four schools. All of the local middle class parents fight for places in the local church school, or the local primary in the middle of the village.

Ds's school has a very mixed catchment, lots from the "rough" estate and others from the edge of the village. Compared to the others, however, it had a warm and welcoming feeling, and the children were polite and friendly, but also relaxed and confident.

Honestly, I am delighted with it. There are a few interesting families who "forget" to take their children to school, but plenty more who throw themselves into school life.

I think gut feeling goes a long way.

I do feel that a lot of posters are being disingenuous about these wonderful inner city schools with troubled intakes, and what a glorious social mix you can subject your children to. A lot of schools in deprived areas have to cope with much more than educating children. Some behaviour that takes place in some schools (some of which admittedly are not in deprived areas) is so extreme that I wouldn't want my children exposed to it. At an inner London school in the nineties and early 2000s, a relative of mine needed stitches to her face from a 6-year-old throwing a milk bottle at her, and had her leg badly injured when a Y5 boy threw a chair down a flight of stairs, when she was at the bottom.

We don't know the particular circumstances of this school, but I think tilda is getting a particularly hard time for saying what a lot of people think. Some inner city schools on the edge of "rough" estates are beacons of excellence. Some are grim, and children don't achieve their potential.

OP - My children go to a school which sounds very similar to the one you describe. It is well resourced (getting better and better, with the pupil premium), has motivated and dedicated teachers, with lots of experience of special needs. Bullying is dealt with swiftly and effectively. Both my children are learning well, happy and there is a positive, calm, happy atmosphere in the school.

Yes, there are sometimes behaviour issues. There are a handful of children who are especially "challenging". There are also staff who are absolute pros at handling such behaviour.

I've also seem some spectacularly awful behaviour from children at the rather more exclusive prep school just up the road.

Go with your instincts - your neighbours are on the defensive because their decision to go private is an expensive one and they don't want to feel they are throwing money away. But be prepared to get involved in school, support your children's education, communicate with teachers and become part of the school community in a way that will help you keep your ears to the ground and know what's going on. That's the decision we made six years ago - haven't regretted it yet and have saved ££££!

TheAvocado - I do take your point, but there is a big difference between looking around a school and liking it, compared to writing it off simply because of it's catchment or intake. If our local school felt remotely unsafe, out of control, or disorganised, then I wouldn't have considered it.

If I gave tiles a hard time it was because she started her post "as an educational psychologist......" if she had told us her experience as a parent, that would be ok- but she gave her posting a professional gloss which, in my experience, needed to be challenged.

Our primary school is not in an inner city, but it is the catchment school for an area of significant social deprivation. There is much that is wrong witht he schholl but the experience for my children in going there is almost wholly positive, if not always easy. No disingenuousness here.

I think MNers must be very lucky because despite there being failing schools up and down the country, with children leaving unable to read, write or do anything very useful, everyone on MN has amazing local schools, often inner city, high ESL, high FSMs and the only consequence is that their children learn tolerance and humility despite their middle class privilege.

I wonder where the inner city sink schools are, that fail?

Largely in the pages of the Daily Mail, if you're talking about Primary Schools.

Also to add, IME and experience of those I know in teaching, the first year or two of school (in a so-called rough area) will be about "policing" bad behaviour and teaching many of thhe pupils how to socialise after spending four years in front of the tv. You can't always expect the childdren who are actually ready for schooling to get as much of the attention and tuition as they deserve if the class is big.

On the plus side, my DS will not be shocked by bad behaviour when he goes out in to Real World as an adult, and he learnt at an early age how to stand up for himself

Here we go again. Only children who attend state schools know anything about the 'real world.'

I listened to a very interesting programme on radio 4 froma week last Sunday. Analysis:Do schools really make a difference?
Well worth a listen.
One of the things they discussed was that schools have 10% of an impact on the children's education and that home life is much more important.
There was a lot of other good stuff but that might make you go and listen to a different perspective, which can often be good in regards to choosing schools. People can get themselves worked up about it.
My children attend inner city school with a mixed intake from residential private housing and council estate. We have a variety of EAL families.
I like our school. I like the choice we have made.
I am going to bed as I feel quite ill so am not ignoring any questions.

I feel that I am being ganged up upon for merely saying what many others are too fearful to say. I started my post with "as an educational psychologist" because i wanted to give my personal experience of what such schools CAN be like, because i am not a teacher, pupils will often tell me more about their home life or school life more-so than they would tell their teachers. I also believe many of you have got the wrong impression by what is meant by middle class. Middle class has no clear definition, it does not mean that they are wealthy or even that they own their own homes. Being middle class is about the values you hold such as the values you place on education and your involvement in your children. I have worked with children who live on estates and in some cases these are the parents who are most driven and want their children to succeed because they want their children to be in a position where they can choose not to live on an estate. I have continually said it's about the parents, being involved in your child's education is what will make them succeed, if you are willing to spend the time with your child and being local to school is important to you then i think the inner city school will work for you. I don't think you should be commenting on my faith, or me supposedly not showing any, because you don't even know me. We are christian and although i have a job working in a range of schools, i also work offer my experience at a local charity so those who cannot afford to have an educational psychology reports can , and this has meant that many children have got the help they need. The parent who wrote this post obviously has concerns about the school in mention, so it's important that we all tell her our experiences or views being them good or bad. This will let her make a balanced decision and will also give her enough time to look at other option before deciding what school will be best for her and her son.

Greythorne I have read masses of threads on MN from people that are dis-satisfied with their children's education, dull, repetitive homework, unsympathetic teachers, bullying, poor leadership etc. So it is utterly untrue to imply that MN is a "failing-school-free-zone". It is, however, interesting to note that those stories don't always come from the schools which the Daily Mail et al would lead us to believe they will come from.

I do, however, agree with Seeker that secondary may be a different matter. I am happy with my children's primary school. I am less happy with the risks involved in sending them to the equivalent secondary school and will be making considerable efforts to get them into something better.

It's individual schools that count.

The school that was outstanding locally to me has just been inspected again and dropped to special measures. Some of the parents there (its right near our less amazing school) were horribly smug when talking schools. It's hard not to sing 'your not laughing anymore' down the road at them. A real shame for the kids but My point is schools can and do change. A change of headteacher for example can ruin or make a school.

Congrats on being quietly smug and not rubbing their noses in it monstermissy!

Wow. I am completely overwhelmed by the response to this. I only come on here in the evenings and was just expecting one or two comments when I checked back just now, so this discussion is fascinating, incredibly useful and really demonstrates the value of MN to me! Thank you all.

The posts here have given me some genuine reassurance about opting for the local school. It is rated 'good' for a reason, I got a good feeling about it when I went round and I should trust my judgment. It also has a good VA score. But you've also raised some really valid questions that I need to find out more about. You've also encouraged me to make appointments to go and see nearby faith schools and schools we know we won't get into so we have a proper comparison.

I'm sorry that TaAM got a bit of a hard time. I've valued all the perspectives here (and would be delighted to hear more perspectives too) and everyone's opinion is relevant.

Part of my problem has been that I've struggled to find people to talk to about their own direct experience of the school (should I just loiter around the school gates??). Even though you're all (presumably) talking about different schools, there's a lot here that gives me some of the viewpoints I have been looking for.

No, we're not Islington - similarly central but in a different direction.

Loitering round the gates in my experience is not the best way to find out about the school. You will probably only notice 'parents' that 'worry you'. I am retrospectively ashamed of my assumptions about certain Mums from wondering past the school gates before PFB started school nursery. I am so glad I chatted to the Head/ visited school and ultimately sent my son there. School gates does not tell you about inner workings/ atmosphere of the school itself and as I found can create a false impression.

If you really want the perspective of a current parent, ask the Head to put you in touch with one. OK, it will be a 'selected' parent, one who is likely to be happy with the school and involved in it...but the response of the head to such a request will be interesting of itself!

OP, I think yes if you could find parents who have knowledge of the school that would really help. Your impression of the school is incredibly important and I would be inclined to rely on that first and foremost but other opinions could also be useful.

FWIW I am in central London and looked round all our local primaries. One is outstanding, the others are all good. All have socially mixed intakes, transient populations, high ESL and FSM. I could not have decided between the schools on the basis of the ofsted report. My visits really filled in the blanks. The "good" school where I was shown around by a bored secretary who knew nothing about the school, was dressed inappropriately, didn't know how I could get to talk to the headteacher did not impress me. The equally ofsted rated "good" school where the headteacher showed me around, asked about my child, got some of the school children to show me into their classrooms and talk to me about their school in a really poised and confident way really did.

My tiny insight is that leadership is what matters in a primary school and a dedicated head teacher who can bring his/her team with her is the key. My DD's school (the outstanding ofsted one mentioned above) is outstanding only because the head is outstanding. The intake is mixed, facilities quite poor, etc etc but the head teacher has imposed her will on the school and everyone achieves what they can. It's not perfect by any means and I have some frustrations with it but it's shown me the power of leadership. So I suppose that's my other comment - take a view on the leadership on offer.

My SIL sent my dn to a school with a bad reputation in a rough council estate area. He did very well academically at the school and there were some excellent teachers. However, after a few years she changed him to another school which had a better reputation as she did not feel comfortable at the school. Every time she told people which school her ds went to they would look at her in Ihorror. And she felt that she did not fit in at the school with the other mums. There were lots of dads with dangerous looking dogs , and mums smoking in the playground etc. So I think that you have to feel comfortable yourself at the school otherwise any bad feelings you have about the other families will rub off onto your DC. Posters on this thread are not the norm if they really do not care about this at all.

I think you are making a fair point Frankie3.

Shamboholic, to gain some personal insight into the school, you could offer to do reading with the younger children. Heads are often very keen on people coming into read with those who have difficulty. Some of my DD's friend's parents at nursery did this for their first choice school. It gave them a look at the school on a normal day rather than the school at its best for the open day. This way you would also get to see the level the children are at on average and whether you would feel happy to leave your child there 6 hours a day, five days a week. Looking at all the schools is a good idea, that way you can compare them. For us one of the schools has an art foundation which means they do two whole school art projects a year and use more unusual teaching methods something we preferred to the more victorian style teaching methods used in the other church schools. Try not to be persuaded by facilities, this is not whats important, focus on the pupils per class, ask the head for the teachers qualifications (they have to give these to you, if you ask). Often the smaller schools that seem more run-down may be better than the fancy, big brand new schools, because due to the smaller sites they have less pupils, perhaps 22 rather than 30 and thats has to have a positive effect on children.

Also bear in mind that church schools don't have catchment areas, but will offer places to those who live nearby. Often those who aren't churchgoers aren't aware of this so don't apply. You should consider this, if you are not against such schools.

I live on an estate I sent my children to the local school , OP it was fine ,we are not all trackie wearing hoodlums with staffies