Inner city primary - 'difficult' intake. WWYD?

[Shambolicaholic]

We'll be applying for primary for DC1 next time around and so are starting to seriously think about it all and planning some school visits. We have a state primary rated as 'good' by OFSTED almost at the end of the road. Common sense has always told us that this should be the right place to send our kids - they can walk there, it's on our way to/from work, everyone else there will be v v local etc etc. We don't want to go private, as we think its really important to support the state system and couldn't really afford to do so anyway, even if we wanted to (not to mention that we'd have had to put DC's name down for the local private schools pre-birth...!). Although, if we didn't holiday/buy any luxuries/eat anything other than baked beans then just maybe we could.....

We had a look around the local primary last September and liked it. The children who took us round were lovely and it seemed like a nice place - although tbh we don't really know what we're looking for. Its results are ok - not stellar, not terrible, but ok. It has 40% free school meals and 40% who don't have English as a first language. The issue that concerns most of our neighbours (who've all got their small children registered for local private schools and think we're a bit odd not doing the same) is that a big big big chunk of the intake is from a very rough housing estate nearby. When I say rough, I mean rough. 2 murders on the streets in the past 6 months, should give you the idea. Now, I know that many/most of the kids/families related to the school are not, themselves, rough - we are involved in the local community and many local families are recent immigrants who are desperate for their kids to have a good education. However, it is reasonable to assume that a significant minority of the kids in each class will have tough/chaotic homelife and parents who couldn't care less about their children's education (unauthorised absences are also relatively high). DC1 is bright, articulate and although its early to say, I think he'll be reading a bit when he gets to school. He's been at a great nursery since he was 6 months, has good social skills and loves to learn. I have no doubt that there'll be others at the primary school who are as good and better than him, regardless of their background, however I also know for sure that many children arrive at the school with little English and having had no experience of pre-school or education before that point.

There are a couple of outstanding primaries nearby - our next nearest schools - but we do not have a hope in hell of getting our DCs into those as the catchments are miniscule. Only other local options are faith, and we don't do religion. So, our options are 1) this school 2) kill ourselves financially to do independent, but I'm not sure we'd get a place anywhere even if we could find the money for 2 DCs, 3) move house out of London which we are dead set against. My definite preference is 1 but I'm worried that we're going for the easiest option for us and not the best option for the DCs. This is not a school with a chunk of middle class parents sticking by it and I'm - very frankly - a bit worried that our DCs might stick out a bit and suffer socially as a result. I so want it to work out, but don't want to look back in 10 years and have big regrets.

I am really interested to know what you'd do in this situation and I'm especially interested to hear any experiences from people who have their children at similar sounding schools. How has it been and is there anything I should be looking out for / asking about?

Shocking views from tildaandarchiesmummy. I sincerely hope that you were not the ed psych that assessed my son.

I still work in similar schools but i am still very fearful for my children so want them to go to a very small school which is connected to my church and where i am a governor so that i have a say in their education.

So much wrong with statement. So much.

In my (admittedly limited) experience of working in SE London secondary, the ESL pupils were astonishingly hard working and well behaved. I'd have been more than happy for ds to share a class with them. The speed with which they picked up English was amazing.

Other pupils gave them some support at times, but then one of the very best ways to learn is to teach so this was mutually beneficial; as an educational psychologist I'd hope tildaandarchiesmummy would appreciate that.

Essentially what I'm saying is that the ESL thing isn't necessarily a Bad Thing.

Evilclown, she did say she lost her baby when 6 months pregnant due to being pushed down the stairs by a yr 6 pupil in a difficult school - I can understand her being fearful!

It's understandable that someone who lost their baby at 6 months pregnant as a result of being pushed down the stairs by a child would be more fearful for their children than others might be. You only need to experience one awful event to lose a little bit of faith in humanity and in the capacity of your children to cope just because their home is a little haven at the end of the day.

If behaviour in a school is poor, that is not a good school, regardless of the intake. Posh, not posh, EAL, foreign, poor, rich whatever.

In my experience peer influence in upper juniors is a lot more stronger than in lower infants. I have a son in y6 (age 10) and in the last couple of years he has become aware of what life in a chaotic family is like through his increased independence and going out on his own. In infants he was shielded from the fact that other people smoke, shoplift, take drugs, nick money from their parent's purses, parents argue violently...
He was at a primary with a more deprived intake but we moved this year in preparation for secondary school and a more middle class intake. I don't regret the other school- it's a warm, nurturing place with excellent adults but I feel that ds has come to the point where peer influence exceeds that.

Our kids' school is 40% fsm and 40% esl, inner city, 90% of neighbours don't even look at it. However, the people that do look at it, love it, tend to go there, and are very committed. To generalise from our own experience:
a) the most intellectually inspired children so far have all had English as a second language. Or bilingual children (or even trilingual) as I prefer to call them.
b) the trickiest kids i.e. bullies, disruptive, manipulative have, by coincidence, all been from v middle class backgrounds.
I don't think we'd have come across a) in a private school (they're not on the whole wealthy), but we might well have come across the b) group.

Still think tildaarchiesmumy is full of it.

Would an EP not know the difference between right and write?

Oh come on, be fair. How many times has iPhone etc autocorrected a word u didn't want it to?

Ok ill give her that then.

She is still full of it though and displaying a closed mind that I wouldnt expect of someone with a PHD.

Either that everlong or she is monumentally thick given that as an EP she would be well educated and not thick id go for making it up to some extent.

Im a trapeze artist you know.

My kids go to a school with a very similar profile in another city. DS1 started in year 4, ds 2 in reception. This is our 2nd year at the school. My ds1 went to an inner city school in the USA for a year with a very similar profile again. He was desperately miserable there. I also have friends whose children go to theoretically perfect state schools and are desperately unhappy and learning little.

They are both very happy at school. :) They've made lovely friends. School is safe and well-disciplined and the teachers are committed, creative and passionate. The children who don't have English as a home language get extra support in and out of the classroom throughout, so there's no question of the teacher having to give more time to children who can't speak English yet.

My ds2 is regarded as gifted and talented and the teacher gives him differentiated work while making sure that he's fully integrated into the class. Maybe he's one of the kids that tildaandarchiesmum is talking about because he does occasionally help other children with reading etc but as a deliberate tactic to improve his confidence and understanding.

My children are without question in a minority and so am I: there are very few white, non-Muslim kids at school, very few non-veiled mothers and few mothers who work outside the home. Most of the children go to Mosque after school so there isn't the out-of-school friendship network that I grew up with. This is the only downside we've experienced so far. It's not the same as having friends back to play and I can't pretend it doesn't matter, but it's not enough for me to think about moving schools.

On tildaandarchiesmum - it's desperately sad what happened to her (see her 2nd post) and I can see how it would skew her judgement.

Good luck with making your decision and sorry for the long post!

Don't private schools have loads of ESL kids? I agree that they tend to be very hard-working because immigrant and children of immigrants tend to not take education for granted, regardless of which school they go to.
A lot of the decision as to where you send your dc depends on the parents. If you are pretty motivated with some time to spare aa good state is more than adequate. If you feel there are 'gaps' the parents can plug those with extra reading at home, visits to the museum etc. If however, you are a person with limited time private education can usually cover most bases ie a lot of extra help at school plus extra-curricular activities within the school day.

It is a dilemma - our nearest school was failing, and we were out of catchment (just) for the one we really wanted. We applied away & didn't even place our nearest school on the application. Waiting was so stressful but we got in. I feel ashamed that we, along with lots of others boycotted the local school but the teachers just seemed disengaged. There was a sad feel to the school. You have a good feel for the school, so try it.

As for the lady who is an ed psy - I am surprised by her attitude. We are 'middle class' my DS has lovely manners yet still manages to be the one who requires the attention of the ed psy. I'm not sure I would stay in a profession holding such assumptions that would have a negative impact on children and families I was supposed to be helping.

AmberLeaf, your comments are so hurtful and spiteful, how dare you say that the miscarriage of my baby caused by being pushed down the stairs isn't true. I am deeply hurt by that. I feel sorry for the person who started this post because it has been invaded by awful people who are only open to what they think about schools. If you don't agree with a person's opinion or view then thats fine you make your own comment, it's up to the person who started this thread to decide what points they agree with. On another point my spelling and grammar isn't great because i myself have dyslexia which was what encouraged me to my profession in the first place. I still stand by initial point, that their child will do well in school as long as they have the parents time and support to make sure they are up to speed. Secondly in order to be an educational psychologist you don't need a PHD you need a undergraduate degree and then a postgraduate and a years experience working in a school. To be honest how many of you have actually spent time in schools as an adult, not many i presume? I therefore think you should listen to other peoples views rather than rejecting them as stories, just because you find them too shocking.

Tildaandarchiesmummy- of course your personal experience is relevant. But it seems so very tragic and extreme that I'm not sure it's statistically significant.

And I do have to point out that you started your first post "Well, as an educational psychologist....". It would seem entirely reasonable for people to think that what followed came from your professional, rather than personal experience.

Look. some inner city schools are awful - I have friends who tried their local school but removed their children after incidents like parents coming in threatening kids with guns. Another went off his local school because the children's favourite game was overdose when paramedics gave someone an adrenalin injections.

My own dcs' inner city school is nothing like that. I've never heard of a violent incident, I've never heard a child swearing. I know of one child whose family circs are a bit dodgy, in the past couple of years I've watched the school has transformed him and his behaviour. To me, one of the indicators that the school works is that at every assembly there are loads of fathers and mothers of every race, background, creed, socioeconomic group watching, looking proud. If the majority of parents support their children then the school will succeed.

how dare you say that the miscarriage of my baby caused by being pushed down the stairs isn't true. I am deeply hurt by that

I didnt say that at all.

My comments were nothing about the loss of your baby, more about what you've said re schools.

I though you needed 3 years teaching practice to be an EP? obviously its changed now.

Your opening line was 'as an educational psychologist' so on that I judged you to be more of an arse than I would expect from someone so well educated.

Of course some schools are ghastly. But the one the op is describing isn't. Good OFSTED, ok results and she liked it when she went round. What's not to like about that? She had some specific concerns and people suggested ways she could address them. So far, so normal. Then there was a deeply scare mongering and hysterical posting from an educational psychologist (I'm sorry, but that's how she started her post), and after that people felt the need to redress the balance. Her post carried a lot of weight, carrying as it did a professional imprimatur, so got much more attention than nit would have done if it hqd just been the experience of AN Other poster.

This is obviously my own anxieties, but as my DS is waiting to be seen by an educational psychologist ( he has sensory processing disorder, but school feels he has ADHD, which we don't agree with....) the thought that our parenting will be potentally held up as the only real reason that he is 'misbehaving' is devastating.