Inner city primary - 'difficult' intake. WWYD?

[Shambolicaholic]

We'll be applying for primary for DC1 next time around and so are starting to seriously think about it all and planning some school visits. We have a state primary rated as 'good' by OFSTED almost at the end of the road. Common sense has always told us that this should be the right place to send our kids - they can walk there, it's on our way to/from work, everyone else there will be v v local etc etc. We don't want to go private, as we think its really important to support the state system and couldn't really afford to do so anyway, even if we wanted to (not to mention that we'd have had to put DC's name down for the local private schools pre-birth...!). Although, if we didn't holiday/buy any luxuries/eat anything other than baked beans then just maybe we could.....

We had a look around the local primary last September and liked it. The children who took us round were lovely and it seemed like a nice place - although tbh we don't really know what we're looking for. Its results are ok - not stellar, not terrible, but ok. It has 40% free school meals and 40% who don't have English as a first language. The issue that concerns most of our neighbours (who've all got their small children registered for local private schools and think we're a bit odd not doing the same) is that a big big big chunk of the intake is from a very rough housing estate nearby. When I say rough, I mean rough. 2 murders on the streets in the past 6 months, should give you the idea. Now, I know that many/most of the kids/families related to the school are not, themselves, rough - we are involved in the local community and many local families are recent immigrants who are desperate for their kids to have a good education. However, it is reasonable to assume that a significant minority of the kids in each class will have tough/chaotic homelife and parents who couldn't care less about their children's education (unauthorised absences are also relatively high). DC1 is bright, articulate and although its early to say, I think he'll be reading a bit when he gets to school. He's been at a great nursery since he was 6 months, has good social skills and loves to learn. I have no doubt that there'll be others at the primary school who are as good and better than him, regardless of their background, however I also know for sure that many children arrive at the school with little English and having had no experience of pre-school or education before that point.

There are a couple of outstanding primaries nearby - our next nearest schools - but we do not have a hope in hell of getting our DCs into those as the catchments are miniscule. Only other local options are faith, and we don't do religion. So, our options are 1) this school 2) kill ourselves financially to do independent, but I'm not sure we'd get a place anywhere even if we could find the money for 2 DCs, 3) move house out of London which we are dead set against. My definite preference is 1 but I'm worried that we're going for the easiest option for us and not the best option for the DCs. This is not a school with a chunk of middle class parents sticking by it and I'm - very frankly - a bit worried that our DCs might stick out a bit and suffer socially as a result. I so want it to work out, but don't want to look back in 10 years and have big regrets.

I am really interested to know what you'd do in this situation and I'm especially interested to hear any experiences from people who have their children at similar sounding schools. How has it been and is there anything I should be looking out for / asking about?

Plus3 just want to reassure that I don't judge the m-c parents of disruptive pupils mentioned above as I hope I wouldn't judge any parents. It has helped contradict any prejudices I might have had, though, that these parents are v articulate about the difficulties they have had and it's evident that any one of us could have similar difficulties (nothing to do with how we have been as parents). I mean everyone's very keen to avoid 'difficult' pupils without ever thinking that they could be their own and they'd be horrified by people wanting to exclude them without any attempt to integrate them. I'm under no illusions that it's just luck that so far my children have been 'easy' pupils.

We sent our dd to a school that had high proportion of FSM that was not very popular at the time but dd finished Y6 last July with above average SATs scores and the school had it's best results ever at KS2 . The school is now more popular and is oversubscribed but still has a very wide social mix of pupils. So it can work out OK.
I would however visit all the local schools in the area including the faith schools and the outstanding schools. Some C of E schools are not really very religious and you can always ask how many parents have no religious background as there may be parents like you attending these school already. HTH

I live in London, and in a situation very similar to the one you describe. very similiar FSM %, biggest intake of children is from a Lambeth estate, lots of refugee families, lots of ESOL. Outstanding ofsted.

I have also worked in many schools in Central London, primary and secondary.

A ragbag of facts:
The ESOL % often seems to refer to home language rather than the actual level of English spoken by kids in the classroom. It is a v high % in DS's school, but it is only now in KS2 when a recent arrival has been in the school that he has had any child in his class who was not fluent. In reception some may still be learning (as are many English speakers!). There should be support for children not fluent -in our school there are 2 TAs in every classroom as well as a specialist support room. IF your child was in a linguistic minority amongst children who all spoke another common language between themselves then this would be a potential issue. Genberal London polyglot-ness isn't, IME.
Free School meal %. There is a premium payment to the school for each child on FSM to help address the generalised factors statistically associated with social and economic deprivation - a good school will use this welll
Behaviour: You simply cannot generalise or make assumptions. Many children in Ds's class come fom an estate where violence happens. They are victims of this, (living closer to it) not perpertrators. The only 'rough' behaviour ever known in DS's class has been from a very mc child living with parents in a vitriolic divorce.
Refugees and new arrivals are as you say, almost certainly very focussed on getting the best from the educational opportunity. The 2 really bright kids in DS's class who have been home tutored like crazy are refugees from E African countries.
Being parents lots of PTA and social events mean that parents mix. Being parents and supporting the school and the children together. Some have mortgages, some have council rent books - most wnat exactly the same thing.

If you liked what you saw and felt good about the school, trust your instincts.

There are schools which would make you think twice, but also snobbery and horror stories account for a lot.

I don't think everyone is very keen to avoid "difficult" pupils, are they? My dcs have learned important lessons about tolerance and understanding from the very diverse group of kids in their school.

Everlong: Just because someone lives on an estate does not mean they do not come from a well-adjusted supportive family!

The OP lives NEAR a rough housing estate but is not (we presume) rough herself, the vast majority of families who live ON the estate will also not be rough themselves. If you don't weild a mortgage agreement you have little choice who your neighbours are.

just responding to tildaandarchiesmum's comment about being in school as an adult: I agree that the only way to really know what a school's like (from an adult perspective) is to get involved and to see how things are when the school's not 'on show'. I run a writing workshop in my children's inner city school every week so I get to see the school at work as a professional outsider and not simply as a parent. I've been consistently impressed with the attitude of the children and the high expectations that the teachers have.

OP's prospective school sounds great.

Seeker, I don't know how anyone can possibly avoid 'difficult' pupils unless they start up their own school in their front room with absolute power of veto. Or establish a Free School

Difficult pupils come in many guises.

But in any case, I agree with you about the diversity being of tangible benefit.

We were in a v v similar position, except that the local primary school in our case was rated outstanding by Ofsted and was top of the local league tables, despite its many "challenges". We decided that that our friends and neighbours going private (or finding religion) were just snobs and sent DD1 there.

We're now home-educating. DD1 just wasn't getting any kind of education there, and was being used, as someone mentioned upthread, as a kind of teaching assistant, helping the other kids with their work and being made to sit with the most disruptive boys in the class with the instruction that she was to "keep them in order". She was 6!

Wow, mewantcookies: were the other schools in the area truly dire, so that "top of the league tables" meant very little; or did the school have such talented 6-year olds that they single handedly taught all the rough boys how to read and behave?

Blu- of course you're right. But someone said on here that "we are all keen to avoid difficult pupils" and it's a common theme in school threads.

Was "being used as a teaching assistant" actually group work or peer marking- both used in most modern schools?

Isn't it just?

""we are all keen to avoid difficult pupils" and it's a common theme in school threads." - the 'isn't it just' was to that comment.

I find these stories interesting; mewantcookies clearly I have no idea what was going on in your child's class and maybe your dd was being put upon (I'm sure it happens). But it's pretty standard to get children to help other children in the classroom. Works well from what I've seen.

Oops, I have just realised that DS is probably a difficult pupil - he was moved from sitting next to a particular girl last week for laughing during a science test, and put next to a less funny girl, whose parents probably think she was being used to control him. Eeek.

My ds is in a school which has a diverse mix of children [the area is considered a bit rough and disadvantaged]. He is doing well and is a boy who accepts people at face value and sees all as of equal value. He said to me once concerning a girl in his class who is disruptive- 'blah has a teaching assistant to help her make the right choices' - no negativity just an acceptance that she needed extra support. He is 6 and I am grateful to the school for helping him become a tolerant and respectful individual.

Look, I realise I am probably being obnoxious now, but the main thing is, OP - trust your judgement having taken in what you see and what you can find out.

There are some schools in our general locality that I would be unhappy about DS attending. They do have difficulties with behaviour and / or teaching and achievement - though statistically the demography is of an identical make-up to the school he is at. You cannot generalise, you cannot make assumptions - you just have to look and see.

I work in a school similar to the one op is describing (similar levels of fsm, higher levels of eal and many of our children live on a similar sounding estate) and I feel that our pupils are a real credit to our school. Those who come from stable and supportive backgrounds do extremely well, both academically and in terms of behaviour. Those who have more difficult backgrounds often need more support, but we have more funding and the expertise to do this. The vast majority of those leaving with level 5s in year 6 didn't speak any/much English in reception, but they still achieve above national expectations.

The small number of mc children in the school also do very well, and I don't believ they would be doing any better at a school that had low levels of deprivation or eal. I certainly don't think that their behaviour or attainment would be lower, the values that their parents instill are the most important factor, and as a school we do our best to uphold these.

Op if you like the school I would go for it!

It was me that said that about avoiding difficult pupils, what I meant was that in theory we might have certain prejudices about a) what sort of background they might come from and b) what the repercussions of them being in a classroom will be. Both of which in my experience have been contradicted.
In practice, these so-called difficult ones haven't impeded my children's learning as they are well managed and, as Seeker says, they've taught them very valuable lessons about self-improvement and redemption as well as being able to concentrate with occasional distractions.
Ditto they've taught me valuable lessons about my own prejudices and total lack of understanding about what goes on in a classroom.
I do hope TildaandArchiesMummy (teeth itch to write name) does get into the 'middle-class faith school' of her choice and she might too have her prejudices about the behaviour of children from 'good' homes confounded.

Honestly? I probably wouldn't have gone for your school if I thought the intake was as you describe...but I am actually regretting applying for the local over-subscribed middle-class mecca school for my PFB now, even though it is our closest school, there are many others a similar distance.

With hindsight, DS1's school is a very competitive place. Some of the other mums clearly hothouse and talk about tutoring for year 2 or 3 pupils. The standard is exceptionally high and I am starting to wonder if the expectations are realistic. It is also tough being very bright but not quite as bright as the child that understands the theory of relativity aged 6.

Now that there are some question marks over my son's development I find myself upset that he seems to be considered a nuisance. Even though he seems to be well above the national average he is causing all sorts of trouble because he won't write and he fidgets mercilessly. They haven't got a clue what do do with him. I can't help thinking he may have fared better at a more "mixed" school. His needs would probably be dealt with better or he would be one of the brightest so have better provision for that. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, as they say.

So you should go for the local school imho. Actually, with even clearer hindsight I wish we had moved. I am really keen to move to a cheaper area further away from our leafy-but-iffy part of London!

Good luck though! If you don't want to move and you like the school things are actually fairly positive

If you see good behaviour when you visit a school on a normal teaching day, if behaviour is rated good in an Ofsted report, if you like what you see when you pass the school during playtime etc, then where pupils live (rough estate or exclusive private cul-de-sac) is irrelevant - the school is in control of their behaviour at school, and from the point of view of your child's experience there, that is what matters.

I teach in a school with an unusually high proportion of children from an ethnic group and home background that many would regard as a recipe for poor behaviour. We are, as a school, regarded by neighbouring local communities as 'to be avoided' because of this group.

However, I am constantly shocked, whenever I attend events involving other 'desirable' local schools, by the relatively poor behaviour of their children. Ofsted rates behaviour in our school as 'outstanding' and it genuinely is, both in school and on trips, visits etc. I am constantly complimented by random members of the public on the behaviour of our children - but if I were to say '25% of them are from x community', they would cross the road rather than walk past us.

If the school is in control of behaviour, then I would not worry at primary age about where the children live. I would check that the aspirations of the school are high for all pupils - it can be hard for schools in challenging circumstances to stretch the most able as well as cope with the manifold difficulties. Equally, a school like that often has a mindset of 'doing the best for every child, starting from where they are and seeing how far they can go' and so may well do better for able children than a 'coasting' school that can rely on teaching a class full of similar children.

Also heard R4 programme about 'good schools' the other day and educational expert (not one posting here) said that which school your child goes to contributes about 10% of their educational outcome, the rest is predetermined by gender, ethnic background, affluence, level of education of parents, innate ability etc.
This would mean that the difference between one 'good' primary with mixed intake and a 'good' primary with more affluent intake would be negligible.

tilandarchiesmummt are only middle class children nice then? .

Children of immigrants or refugees as you say, are usually highly aspirational for their children's education.

I'm amazed you're considering Church schools for your DC, you don't seem to exhibit many Christian, Islamic,( insert religion of your choice here) values in regard to acceptance and love towards your fellow human beings.

OP go with your gut instincts, even rough people from rough estates love their children, honest,.
Your DC sound as if they have thoughtful, supportive parents, and i'm sure they'll flourish.
Good luck.

TaAM, I understand your protectiveness about your children given your previous experience. However, you should realise from your professional experience that 'poor behaviour' caused by conditions such as ASD or ADHD or born out of the frustration of undiagnosed learning difficulties are no respector of wealth, class or family background.

I genuinely hope that your children do not suffer from any of these. I also hope, given your attitude, that you do not find that other children in their classes in your 'nice middle class' school suffer from them - or I assume that you and other parents like you will bring your influence to bear to make certain that they 'find another school more suitable for their child'.

My mildly ASD son showed poor behaviour at his 'nice village school', and was also mercilessly bullied by his 'nice middle class' classmates due to his difference. He has moved to another school, with a wider intake, and his behaviour is exemplary, because the school understands him, bullying is not tolerated (however 'nice' the perpetrator - the son of a scool governor, funnily enough - seems to be) and because the behaviour expectations for EVERYONE, whatever their background, are set so high.

Tbh, I think you should go for the local school if you are satisfied that the staff are good at their jobs and they nurture a caring atmosphere, very much needed for some children in particular.

Sme points to keep in mind if your child goes there:

• rough parents can be rough but interested in their kids' education, but othes are just rough and nasty through and through (same applies in every classa, before anyone verebally slaaags me off!). Our primary has both. The rough n nasty parents cause ridiulous problems for everyone, examples being fighting, swearing, drinking alcohol, smoking, dealing in and near the yard. Some people just don't care what their and other people's kids see. Keep out of their way, low profie etc.

• we don't have high ESL in our school but people close to me work in schools with high levels. It IS disruptive but it depends what the council provision is like for them. It is worse in secondary.

• posters saying that immigrants are hardworking and the childrern do well because they are encouraged to etc., well, that's quite a blanket statement, so again, consider each individual case on its merits. Not every family is alike, regardless of nationality, and neither is each of the cultures people may be migrating from. I say this from experience.

The educational psychologist was right to say that parental encouragement shows in the classroom. Regardless of class (however it does seem to be a more middle class trait, let's face it) it is obvious to see which children are helped at home.