Inner city primary - 'difficult' intake. WWYD?

[Shambolicaholic]

We'll be applying for primary for DC1 next time around and so are starting to seriously think about it all and planning some school visits. We have a state primary rated as 'good' by OFSTED almost at the end of the road. Common sense has always told us that this should be the right place to send our kids - they can walk there, it's on our way to/from work, everyone else there will be v v local etc etc. We don't want to go private, as we think its really important to support the state system and couldn't really afford to do so anyway, even if we wanted to (not to mention that we'd have had to put DC's name down for the local private schools pre-birth...!). Although, if we didn't holiday/buy any luxuries/eat anything other than baked beans then just maybe we could.....

We had a look around the local primary last September and liked it. The children who took us round were lovely and it seemed like a nice place - although tbh we don't really know what we're looking for. Its results are ok - not stellar, not terrible, but ok. It has 40% free school meals and 40% who don't have English as a first language. The issue that concerns most of our neighbours (who've all got their small children registered for local private schools and think we're a bit odd not doing the same) is that a big big big chunk of the intake is from a very rough housing estate nearby. When I say rough, I mean rough. 2 murders on the streets in the past 6 months, should give you the idea. Now, I know that many/most of the kids/families related to the school are not, themselves, rough - we are involved in the local community and many local families are recent immigrants who are desperate for their kids to have a good education. However, it is reasonable to assume that a significant minority of the kids in each class will have tough/chaotic homelife and parents who couldn't care less about their children's education (unauthorised absences are also relatively high). DC1 is bright, articulate and although its early to say, I think he'll be reading a bit when he gets to school. He's been at a great nursery since he was 6 months, has good social skills and loves to learn. I have no doubt that there'll be others at the primary school who are as good and better than him, regardless of their background, however I also know for sure that many children arrive at the school with little English and having had no experience of pre-school or education before that point.

There are a couple of outstanding primaries nearby - our next nearest schools - but we do not have a hope in hell of getting our DCs into those as the catchments are miniscule. Only other local options are faith, and we don't do religion. So, our options are 1) this school 2) kill ourselves financially to do independent, but I'm not sure we'd get a place anywhere even if we could find the money for 2 DCs, 3) move house out of London which we are dead set against. My definite preference is 1 but I'm worried that we're going for the easiest option for us and not the best option for the DCs. This is not a school with a chunk of middle class parents sticking by it and I'm - very frankly - a bit worried that our DCs might stick out a bit and suffer socially as a result. I so want it to work out, but don't want to look back in 10 years and have big regrets.

I am really interested to know what you'd do in this situation and I'm especially interested to hear any experiences from people who have their children at similar sounding schools. How has it been and is there anything I should be looking out for / asking about?

Keep an open mind. Do what you think is right and be prepared to change your mind if you later decide it is wrong. There are risks and benefits with every choice. The degree of risk depends on your particular children and their particular class intake as much as anything else, so you don't know until you try it. Also, decide what you want from school: beautifully behaved children competing to be the best in the class and going on lots of school trips adequately funded by voluntary contributions from their parents; or children of all sorts more reflective of wider society, where behaviour and academic achievement are more varied.

I'm more shocked by Tildaandarchiesmum's comments than anything. Shocking.

I was shocked by that as well, especially from an educational psychologist.

I had to read tildaandarchiesmum's post three times, because I could not believe a professional would think, never mind write such a thing.

Trust your instinct. Even if the children do have a chaotic home life, a stable school could be a lifeline for them. If the children were on task, and engaged when you saw round, they are likely like that all the time. Children don't turn it on for adults (much).

You will be giving your child a good start in life, and an appreciation of valuing people for who they are and not what they have. As has been said, look at the value added (not too forensically though, I know a parent who moved a child because the school's value added dropped by 0.4)

Go for it!

I am middle class and went to primary school in hackney. It did have a middle class parent contingent but being middle class I was in a minority. I had a great time there (though your child will be expected to 'help' people who have just moved to the country read). Later on I had problems socially as I stuck out like a big, posh, sore thumb but not at primary.

On the other hand my little sister was so miserable socially due to a high proportion of disruptive pupils in her class that it sped up our move out of London! Different people will react differently.

Agree with majority here. My dcs go to a so-called "rough" school in the middle of an estate. We liked it when we looked round, we went with our gut feeling and it's been brilliant. As everyone else says, if it's really a disaster then mortgage your house for private/leave London etc, but please give it a go. It's a lovely feeling to have your instincts proved right

My dds go to a school like this, (although it's only satisfactory, not yet good).

They are very happy and the behaviour in the school is exemplary.

It's our nearest school but many people where we live drive a bit further to smaller village schools. However, my dds are doing very well; they are miles ahead of our friends' childen in more middleclass school.

A mix of kids is great - everyone can be themselves because no-one looks the same. (I contrast it with our neighbour's daughter's school where every girl has long hair of the same length and in the same style). Also, middleclass kids who are incredibly precious to their ancient parents can behave so badly!

The children who don't have English as a first language pick up English so quickly (with local accents) that it's not a problem.

I became a parent governor and am so impressed at how carefully every child's needs are looked at. Would never go anywhere else.

If the school that you describe is getting a 'good' ofsted, it must be doing brilliantly.

Also in a London Borough - at a school that some parents would turn their noses up at in favour of schools traditionally held in better regard.
IME there are just as many dysfunctional children from parents who work and have used pre-after school clubs, various child minding options as those whose parents don't work and have been brought up on the rougher estates or those from seemingly perfect SAHMs with DH in a good job.
In primary - as long as the school is sound, has a strong sense of discipline and identity, it is quite a level playing field. I also like the fact that my children can count anyone that they play with as a friend without thinking about colour, race, language, special needs, social background etc.

My son was born in 2001 and the primary school he went to was shut down that year. As a consequence it had a terrible local reputation.

I went to see it when he was due to start Reception and found it to be well resourced and full of caring adults that I felt would look after him well. He has flourished and is leaving Y6 with level 5s. The teachers have high expectations on behaviour too. It still has a poor local reputation so when people are about it I'm fine as I feel like I know a secret that I don't want to share.

He (and his siblings) had no problems forming friendships. They picked stuff up like the local accent (dropped t's and words like ain't) but they all know not to speak like that at home.

On the other hand there was a more limited pool of friends but that was totally ok as I picked the school for my kids rather than me.

The area we live in is very white and tbh I wouldn't have sent them to the local school if the majority were from more insular communities who didn't want to socialise out of school. Some people think that 40% EFL is bad but many people speak multiple languages well (think about Swiss children or Asian children who speak English and another tongue) and some cultures are hard working and will pick English up quickly.

As for the Educational Psychologist's answer- I am shocked and laughing. Special Needs happen across all sections of society.

I think that the fact that the children in his class are primarily from chaotic backgrounds could impact yours as the higher end of the school so I would look into your local secondaries in plenty of time but I would send them to the local school that you liked and see how you go. It's not an unbreakable contract like being a parent and you can always change at a later date if things don't work out.

I find this thread extremely one sided and i find it rude that people are disregarding my comments. I did say that with supportive parents the child would most likely to well. Secondly my job should not come in to it, i have worked with children in both the state and private sector and sometimes those at the private schools have worse manners it really depends on the school. If the oftsed is good than thats encouraging, if you are still not sure that you could always wait on the waiting lists for the more oversubscribed schools, places do come up.

And as for my personal experience you are write, the background of the children doesn't always affects their behaviour but sometimes it does. I worked in one inner city primary in Lisson Grove, where i got pushed down the stairs by a child in year 6 when i was 6 months pregnant and lost my baby. I still work in similar schools but i am still very fearful for my children so want them to go to a very small school which is connected to my church and where i am a governor so that i have a say in their education.

I am sorry if i have offended anyone, i really did not mean too. But i feel in order for people to make decision they need to be provided with any experiences whether they are common or rare.

you do know that chaotic or disengaged families can live anywhere, with almost any income and social background.

Your family is the background your DCs have and are nurtured by. That won;t change because you chose to walk to a state school , rather than drive miles and spend on private school.

I disagree with UniS, research has shown that a child's peer environment is what shapes them. Just wanted to clear that up.

We live in a big city and our local state school is in special measures. I could not get an appointment to view the school. The head would not meet us. My neighbours who already had children at the school were all dissatisfied and looking around for private alternatives. The school is huge (5 form intake) with high levels of transient families, long term absenteeism and free school meals.

I was open-minded but wanted to see the school for myself. When we could not get an appointment, we applied to private schools.

OP: your local school sounds fine. If you visited and though it looked good, it probably is. But remember there is a strong anti-indie vibe on MN and lots of people would think poorly of you going private and even in our situation, which is not really comparable, I have been sneered at for rejecting our local state school. On MN, I mean.

I agree with Greythorne, there is a very strong anti-indie vive on MN, it's up to you which school you choose if you have got no problems with the school they go for it, but if you have even the slightest worry, there is no point. With state schools you really need to be supportive as a parent and doing the extra work with your child to make sure they don't fall behind what the national curriculum.

I think if you have the means for private education and that's what you want to do, then that is the right decision for your DCs
I would never criticize anyone for choosing private over state or vice versa

Tillyandarchiesmummy, if your job is irelevant, why feel the need to mention it?
Your views on certain areas and schools are narrow minded, whether you accept that or not.
You basically made a point of how your DCs were at a "middle class" school, what do you expect people to think?

Some of the best teachers on here work in schools with very challenging intakes.

They don't complain about it or short change the others.

They get on and do their job to a brilliant level, and teac all kids.

It all depends on the school - not the intake. It depends on the HT,SENCO and teachers. Those are the only things that matter.

Of course it has an influence, that's why OP was asking for advice. But just because children go to an inner city state primary does not mean they will be uneducated or " need help so they don't fall behind the curriculum.

I would try not to worry. Honestly. It sounds glib, but it is really true - a good primary school experience for most children is one where they feel happy, have friends and are part of their community. This is especially true for children of parents who read with them, give them cultural experiences outside of school and provide a stable, loving home. I imagine your child gets all of this at home, so try to see home as the big deal and school as something to build on your already strong foundations. Secondary school is where you have to be really careful, ime!

Our DC go to an inner London primary school where 80% of children dont speak English as a first language. The Ofsted is decent, but not outsanding - but to be honest, as I have worked in education, I dont pay much attention to Oftsed. In my experience, many 'Outstanding' schools are just outstandingly good at ticking all the right boxes and putting on a good show.

The key thing is what you think about the school, when you visit. Whats the headteacher like? What vibe do you get from the staff and children? Is the environment warm and settled?

I honestly wouldnt change my DCs school for all the outstanding and even private primaries in my area. The teaching is excellent, the pastoral care is fantastic and the school is a proper part of the community. Look at these things and see how you feel. But dont panic!

Of course school has a big influence, but most psychologists or psychotherapists who work with children will tell you that a child's home life is the single biggest factor in the health, wellbeing and educational attainment of the child.

Well, there are some schools I wouldn't want to send my children to and I think it's dishonest to say otherwise. Where concern about the influence of others, or the effect of others' behaviour, comes in is different for everyone. Some people only feel confident they are doing the right thing if lots of other people like them are doing the same thing - safety in numbers (and predictability of cohort). Schools with lots of the same type of children are also easier on the teachers, as you can rely on the general academic standard in the class being better than average before you even start. Others think that they and their children are missing out on so much by doing that, that they are willing to take the risk of the less predictable. It partly depends also on whether you view school solely as a place to learn to read, write and add up, with minimal other distractions of the non-musical, artistic or sporting type, or as a place to develop an understanding of other types of people from different backgrounds (but even if you want that, you tend to want it to happen in a controlled environment!).

Whatever anyone else says, though, I don't think peer influence is stronger than family at the age of 4 or 5. I do think it has a big influence at age 14. That's why if I couldn't afford private education all the way through, I would favour saving up to avoid the rough secondary school (although if the primary were so bad that the year 6s were bringing in knives, threatening teachers and dealing in drugs, then I would hot foot it out of the school and never take my children back - but I wouldn't have thought such a school would manage a good OFSTED rating).

I wouldn't think anyone would choose a school like that!

Might do if I wanted my children to take drugs into school to flog for me!...