Unathorised Absence

[MrsFruitcake]

I know this is a thorny topic on MN and I'm liable to be flamed but I genuinely need some real advice.

I work frontline NHS and have had problems getting time off work during the school summer holidays this year. DH has his own business which isn't doing great and we managed to find a great deal on a holiday to France - basically, it's £600 less to go end of June than 1st week of school hols in July. We foolishly booked it, I filled in a form at DDs school asking permission to take her out for 5 days and thought no more of it.

On Thursday, a letter came home with her stating that as she's had 9 days leave in September 2010 (also for a family holiday), permission would not be granted.

Called travel company and they want £700 extra, which we don't have. We paid £400 for 9 days (4 of which are weekend days). School made no mention of SATs in the letter and attendance was the only thing they got pulled up on at their last 'Outstanding' ofsted report.

My question is - what will likely happen if we take her anyway - the letter makes it clear that this will be unauthorised absence and we could be liable to prosecution.

I think we'll probably have to cancel, and we'll lose the money paid.

Any advice? If you got this far, then thanks.

I have been trying so hard not to get drawn into a very familiar debate... but I can hold back no more.

If a parent removes their child from school for nearly three weeks for family holidays, that really does not give that child much time to be sick. A couple of days here and there including the family holiday and it could accrue to more than a month. Is that a good idea over a school year?

A child does not suddenly revert to normal classroom mode after returning to class after a week or more break, s/he will not have a clue what the rest of the class is doing. It can take days. Should the teacher spend time bringing the absent child up to date, thus depriving the rest of the class of his/her attention. Is that fair on the other children?

And to the OP and others: It is true that a holday in a different culture can provide an insight into different cultures and societies. But let's be 'real' about this; if the discount offered is that big by booking a week earlier, do you really believe it's a 'Culture' holiday? Or a hot, beach and sea sort of holiday?

You should go, and have a great time, don't wast time on what may or may not happen, there are parents that send children to school late every day, not in uniform are on the at risk register, these family's do not get fined.

Lavendarbongo: where do you live?

I want to move there.

Go on the holiday. And enjoys yourselves. Don't expect the school to spend any time on cathing up with what she misses though, which won't be much anyway.

I wouldn't think twice and have done it myself loads of times.

I think what gets people including myself so irritated about this debate is the unreasonable nature of expecting children to be attending school 100%. It should be a give and take with schools, which are after all a partnership.

Our school marks all absences unauthorised, even in cases of grievance, funerals of close relatives, family weddings, etc...one rule for all. I find this upsetting, even though personally I have never had to take my children out in term time - that doesn't mean I might not need to at some point.

This makes me pickier towards the school's own deficiencies, like when they have not called a supply when a teacher was sick, (has happened more than once), or closed the school for a whole week due to snow (even though all other local schools only closed for 1 day),or further other things I would be much more inclined to understand if they were not so inflexible with the children's parents about children missing on their education.

It is after all a partnership and trust should be mutual, unless the individual has given reasons to believe they are abusing that trust.

Gosh emy - that's harsh!

I was annoyed at my school when, for my grandad's funeral, they took a half day off my 10 day allowance. But at least it was classed as authorised.

emy you're right, it should be give and take. If you want to take your child out for a week's holiday which absolutely cannot be taken in term-time, them most schools would authorise it. The 10 day rule exists to provide this flexibility.

However I'm baffled that people think the OP is behaving reasonably in dealing with the school. Booking 2 weeks off for a holiday at the start of the year and another week at the end without discussing it with the school?!

That is v bad re doctor's appointments and funerals not being marked as authorised absences at your school. If I were you I'd question the legality of it, although to be honest it will look a lot worse for them when Ofsted descend!

Goodegg - actually, the school authorised the first holiday last September and I requested that in the correct way, as I did for this holiday. However, if I'd wanted to, I could have just taken DD out for a week and claimed she was ill and nobody would have been any the wiser.

As I said earlier, you really do have it in for me. Why do you care so much about my life?

Also, as Emy said, my school also closed for 4 days when we had the snow which was unaceptable. I live in an outlying village and managed to make it the 4 miles to the school in my rear-drive car (quite some feat!) to find that it was shut on the first day and then got home to an e-mail saying they would likely be closed for the rest of the week!

MrsFruitcake - people "care" because you've posted your situation on here.

Also, I think the fact that you've already taken your DD out for 2 weeks in September (which is a very disruptive time to take a child out) and now want another few days is what has engendered the debate.

How old is your DD?

Can you see in any way that you are sending the wrong message to your child that school is optional and if you fancy doing something else that's OK?

I wouldn't like to be trying to explain to your DD age 14 why she shouldn't truant if you've been pulling her out for holidays after holidays.

Yes you did well to get to the school in the snow, but it's not just about parents being able to get the children in to the school, there needs to be a certain number of staff there - maybe the HT could not get sufficient staff to cover the classes?

All in all, yes you can take your child out and claim she's ill, but be prepared to have to back this up with a doctor's certificate, given that you've already asked for the time off.

And also consider the message you are sending to your child, and the difficulties you are causing for your relationship with the school.

"Can you see in any way that you are sending the wrong message to your child that school is optional and if you fancy doing something else that's OK?"

This isn't necessarilly the message dependant on how it's presented to the child. It could also be seen as time spent together as a family is very important, too.

I'm not going to post again. All I asked for was advice and now I seem to be a terrible parent for wanting my DD to have a family holiday and learn some new things whilst on that holiday.

I did everything by the book (apart from not first seeking approval from the school) but the bottom line is that we can't afford to go anywhere in the school holidays (for which I blame the travel companies for hiking their prices so much). Doesn't every parent want to give their child a holiday if they can? Its not all about DH and I.

As an aside - my parents have a caravan - when we enquired about a weeks holiday at the camp site they always pitch it at in the south of England each summer, the cost was only £120 less than the holiday we have booked in Europe.

you are not a terrible parent. You do what many thousands of families do each year. Some phone in sick, some tell the truth to the school and go for unauthorised. A few get fined. But it is only the brave who mention it on here for fear of the flaming!!!!

Honestly, don't worry about it, go and enjoy your family time.

I am taking my two younger dc out next September 2012 for 3 weeks as wer eof to WDW will aslo be seeing the real oralndo to have swamp tours and space centre booked and there was a lot of oo and ahh before i could get agreement .But I did make it clear that I would pay the fine if needed.
It wa snot negotiable ( dd has a condtion that means she will ahve more and more lung issues as gets older so want to make the most while we can ~)
We need to travel out of holiday time as theres lmits on wheelchairs on planes and ds struggles with crowds to.Dd will be in year 5 and ds going into Y3.

Was a lot of to and froing dd attendence is good ds not so much but thats becuase he has phsyio/ot/paed appoinments so infact has only had 2 days that he was of becuase was ill .Distance wise as he is in a unit means that any appoinments even 10 min one smeans whole day of school as Lea will not transport it ( by public its 3 and 1/2 hs each way~).

So If Lea fined me i would have fought back with that for ds3 as there quite happy not to bothe rpicking him up unless the set times of transport

Dd head has understood and will autorise the 10 days the rest will be unthorised but will not be fining me .

oh and not taking ds1 ands2 as ds2 is senior level but mind they ar enot intrested in Disney anyway.

But am going to be honest Op having two holidays in same year would not count as struggling with money .
One yes I would say below high school age as long as you advoid sats and the run up etc then I would do it without blinking and did when had ds1 and ds2 at that age .But two in one year unless theres very good grounds for it think is pushing it

We camp and not sure where your your pil camp but we camp or did in the summer and found a week even on the best sites with Ehu pools top lesiure faclties up was £200 a week

You're not a terrible parent at all - I think people reaaaaally overreact at taking children out of school. I feel it is my duty to ensure that my child has a good education, I don't feel it is my duty to care about the school's attendance figures for Ofsted. I completely agree with Juuule that it doesn't have to send a bad message - it totally depends how you do it.

As an aside, yes caravan prices are shocking!! I thought that was the cheap version of holiday but I've been quoted almost £1k for a very average caravan in Britain

It seems to me that this is just a case of the OP understanding that there are consequences to her actions. She has a choice whether to carry out those actions, and needs to accept that those actions have consequences.

She has already had one holiday in term time this year. Consequence: her child's school will not sign off any more as authorised.

She has chosen to take the holiday as unauthorised absence. Consequence: There may be some follow up, in terms of letters or fines.

She has chosen for her child to miss a week of teaching. Consequence: Her child may miss teaching of a particular technique or area.

Her child will have missed this technique or area of learning. Consequence: Next time this area is covered, in a later year at school (the curriculum is 'spiral', so in most areas later learning builds on that earlier learning), her child will not be as secure in this area as she might have been.

Her child will not be as secure as she might have been in this area of learning. Consequence: The level of consequence depends a lot on the child's general position in the class, general level of ability, the relatedness of this piece of knowledge / skill to others, how often this particular piece of knowledge is revisited each year. In the best case scenario, there will be no discernable consequence. In the worst case, this 'gap' might be a missing building block that really causes problems and makes a whole area insecure, that means rather than just holding on in X group the child moves down into Y group.

The child's teacher will not want this to happen. Consequence: the teacher will work very hard to plan and act to mitigate the disadvantage by 'catching the child up' as far as possible (limitations of time and resource make this an imperfect process, though)

The child's parents may just see 'Oh well, it didn't seem to make much difference'. Consequence: The teacher gets grumpy at this and other parents who think it is OK to take holidays in term time because 'it makes no difference' whereas in fact the teacher has had to 'double work' to teach the main learning of the week or weeks missed twice over. As a teacher, I don't mind 'double working' to catch up a child who has been ill. I am a lot less keen on it when somebody has been on holiday, though I will always do it because the child is my first priority.

Grouchy, OP didn't pay for the first holiday.

Doesn't matter if they paid for it or not PTT - the issue is the time off school.

And I guarantee they took spending money.

busters, my comment was in response to Grouchy who said that the OP couldn't be hard up for money if they could afford 2 holidays in one year.

ah i see sorry. too many children for a not sleepover last night

i would take my kids out even if i could afford summer holidays - the principal of paying double for the same holiday annoys me. As it is i do go in school holiday time because covering 12 weeks is hard enough but i would take them out if i didn't need to think about covering the breaks.

Sorry missed that if thats the case i apolgise to op about the money comment, but still feel thats two holidays in one school year even if one is paid for is over doing it .

Op is it going to be a one of this year and except that for the rest of years that going more than the 10 days will not be authorised ?
infact you may well find the head is less inclined to authorise becuase she may think your going to ask again

But Op you know the consequences and only you can make the choice and descion to go

I have made my descion about 3 weeks next and was prepared to accept the consequences if needed fine /follow up etc but know that on the whole we dont ask for more than 5 days but not evne asked for that past few years as can not take older DC out of school (year 9 and ds1 now left)

I do think it depends on the age of the child as well

Teacherwith2 great post.

Teacherwith2
I agree great post.

So where do I stand OP in your opinion? My DP has very restricted leave allowance and we really can't afford a holiday in peak season, so as a teacher am I allowed time off to get a holiday with my family? Oh but by the way, if it happens, it would probably have to be unpaid leave and the class would be covered by a mix of teaching assistants and three or four different supply teachers as we don't have a spare teacher (or supply teacher) who could cover the whole fortnight, so quality of teaching would be ropey. But if it's fair for you to have two authorised family holidays in one year, surely it's fair for me to have just one and would be unpaid leave?
Ducks and runs for the hills! And before anyone asks - no I will not be having a holiday AGAIN this year.

PS if you do go, don't phone in sick - we expect a phone call every few days with an update of how your ill child is getting on, if not we phone you (out of concern for your child's wellbeing). One parent was really dropped in it when we phoned home, no reply, so phoned her work number to be told she was in Ibiza for a fortnight!