I wish it was easier to talk about terminations (apologies if upsetting)

[Thurlow]

It feels like it is one of the great taboos and I don't dare talk about it IRL.

It's playing on my mind as I had a termination just under a year ago, so newborn babies are a bit of a touchy spot at the moment.

I am comfortable that we made the right decision but as a 30-something mum in a long term relationship, I know it is not a common choice nor it is one that many people might even understand or approve of.

But knowing it was the right decision doesn't mean I have completely forgotten about it or that I don't ever want to talk about it. I had the counseling that was offered, I am fine with my choice - but it's still there.

But I feel like I can't talk about. Sadly, many of my friends are going through problems TTCing right now, including some very, very tragic experiences. I know the most inappropriate thing I could ever say to them would be to tell them I terminated a potentially healthy baby.

99.9% of the time it is no problem but every now and again, people ask me when we might think about having another DC, or I feel I am in a conversation where I am essentially lying and dancing around the subject. I nearly mentioned it completely by accident to a very good friend the other day, a friend who would probably be very upset if she heard about it.

Why does it feel like such an awful taboo? Selfishly, why do I feel like I have to keep this secret from people? I feel like even those who wouldn't be personally hurt by the decision would probably be 'disappointed' that I made that decision, or perhaps think less of me.

It's even taken me a while to be open about this under my usual username. How bad is that?

I might be sensitive about this at the moment, but sometimes it feels as though "you made that decision, you live with it".

Is it just me? Does anyone else understand?

(Sorry this is a bit waffly...)

Thank you for this thread Thurlow. I agree a separate topic is needed

I agree with Thurlow a separate topic would be more appropriate than a long running thread. I posted in Antenatal Tests/Choices and had some fab support and quite a few pms but when I was having problems with hurtful comments afterwards there was nowhere appropriate to post. I asked for advice in Relationships but the comments focused on how I should have kept it private and how I couldn't expect family to agree with what I did. I still struggle with that and although counselling has helped, I would love advice from others who have been there.

I think I was lucky in that I had a termination because I was dangerously ill and it didn't lookgood for me or the baby and so people can sympathize more easily but it's still taboo, still a shameful secret.

WinifredTheLostDenver Please don't apologise, I didn't mean to make you feel bad about posting it. There are some good posts on it, you are right.

And I'm still not as brave as many of you as this isn't my usual name.

Welcome, Patrician, I'm so glad this thread has encouraged someone to register with MN.

I think the issue with saying there would be too much of a problem with trolls is that there are trolls all over MN, and in some very upsetting places too. People, very sadly, troll the bereavement and mental health boards and get other posters to share very personal experiences, so I can't see how termination will be so different. Similarly, if someone went on a special needs or bereavement thread and said something that went against the grain of the thread, it can and will be reported, and again I can't see how termination will be so very different.

It comes down to all being in a name.

The antenatal tests/choices board is potentially not the wrong place for open discussion of termination - but as it stands the name doesn't make it clear.

If you were sitting there three days ago, before this thread started, where would you actually go to discuss a possible termination?

I've messaged MN about this.

Tevin - I asked for advice in Relationships but the comments focused on how I should have kept it private and how I couldn't expect family to agree with what I did

I'd forgotten, I had exactly the same experience! I posted because I was struggling keeping the secret from my oldest friend, who guessed that something was happening to me (this was back around the time I had a termination) and guessed that I was basically lying and saying I was fine, just a bit under the weather etc. I had the same response - keep it to yourself, don't inflict that information on other people, you chose to do it so essentially you need to find a way in private of dealing with it

Thanks, different

Thurlow, I'd probably post on FWR or on relationships, but I'm familiar with the boards and know those two would have lots of empathetic posters replying (as well as some not so friendly). As a newbie, I dunno - maybe Chat as you've done?

Oh, you got a bad reception on Relationships .

FWR then.

patrician, hello and welcome to MN. Great username.

It says a lot that you signed up just to talk on this thread.

different: well, I was thinking more of a separate topic within Body and Soul, so you'd have 'Miscarriage/pregnancy loss', 'Bereavement', and 'Ending pregnancy' (for example: probably not the best title but you know what I mean). I didn't mean that termination threads should be housed within 'Pregnancy loss': you're quite right that that wouldn't make for a good atmosphere.

The comment that you received from the midwife poster is exactly the kind of thing that we would need deleted, or at the very least strongly discouraged in the topic header, if there was to be a dedicated topic.

Your comment about unpleasant posts was spot on, by the way: those who want to condemn, criticise and judge will do so carefully enough so as not to be classed as a personal attack, but those on the receiving end know that it bloody well is. Nail on the head there. And you don't need to look too hard to see this kind of thing.

By the way, speaking of trolling on the feminism boards, has anyone considered posting there to talk about how you deal with incessant trolling, specifically in regard to how you'd make a termination support topic work?

I had people questionning why I told my parents (because I have a school aged child who told them I was vommiting non stop and they aren't stupid!) but my point was about their comments but no one seemed able to see past judging me for that. I'm sure some people do happily tell no one but others need support/have people around who guess and this is the kind of thing a termination board could also help with.

The more we talk about it the less taboo and shameful termination will become and I truly believe that will help women find it less traumatic.

(i mucked up my namechange there I've been posting as Tevin but this is my usual name!)

Tevin, Thurlow, I can't believe you got those responses on Relationships. What a load of insensitive tripe, and guaranteed to have been posted by people who had never had to make such a difficult decision.

I will never understand how people can't put themselves in somebody else's shoes for five minutes and just withhold the simplistic judgey shite.

I am 50/50 about whether this discussion does need to be widened out site stuff or something.

I'll wait and see what MN have to say later.

I thought that I was just unlucky Thurlow and Winifred but maybe not. I wasn't strong enough to deal with justifying myself: I just needed advice. Just as it seems only women who had hg can understand what it's like maybe only women who've had a termination can really understand and how do we find each other without a specific place to go?

Why on earth should you have to feel ashamed about it? Why do you deserve to be judged?

There's still this massive, ancient cultural attitude out there that it's unnatural for a woman to end a pregnancy because women should be self-denying, submissive and caring, and find their joy in looking after others. And it is almost always the woman who would be taking on the lion's share of the work in any unwanted or unplanned pregnancy.

I actually posted on the HG support thread, peach, as I thought that would be one place I would be understood (I do not get anywhere near as ill as you, but I still couldn't face 6 months of being ill with a 2yo, a shift-working partner and no family support, I knew I'd end up hospitalised in that situation - I want to wait until DD is a fair bit older before going through that again). I was understood, to a degree - but the HG thread is mainly full of women who have faced the termination v continuing debate, and decided to continue with the pregnancy. So they were supportive and kind, but it wasn't the same.

how do we find each other without a specific place to go - MNHQ, this is the big question at the crux of this whole debate, I feel.

I was thinking more of a separate topic within Body and Soul, so you'd have 'Miscarriage/pregnancy loss', 'Bereavement', and 'Ending pregnancy' (for example: probably not the best title but you know what I mean). I didn't mean that termination threads should be housed within 'Pregnancy loss': you're quite right that that wouldn't make for a good atmosphere.

Ok, I see...a subtopic, if you like. I wasn't thinking properly...yes, I think it could work well there.

Thurlow I avoided the hg thread knowing it'd be full of 'you can do it keep going' spirit (which is great if you need that) but I felt I was in a different situation - more can I live with keeping going? (both actually survive and live with the consequences ie long term health problems, no baby at the end of the suffering etc). I feel a termination board would allow us to explore what we can cope with and work out the myriad of feelings afterwards in a supportive, non judgemental place.

I felt very weak, emotionally and physically, after my termination and there is just no support place I could find anywhere. It's a real gap for women I feel.

It's hard, isn't, because you think "they'll understand" - but actually they won't, because they made a different decision to you.

It seems increasingly clear that the only people who are going to understand are those who have made, or had to make, the same decision as you.

And that nowhere on MN is answering that need at the moment.

I think that anywhere else you end up justifying yourself too Thurlow; I have 2 children (1 at school so I have to be up every morning and 1 toddler at home), a challenging job (that I need), a dh who works away part of the week, my toddler wakes 4-5 times a night, I have no family nearby and if I don't go to work then I can't afford to send my toddler to child care (so no extra rest) and spending at least 1 week of every month in hospital for 9 months means me or my husband will quite probably lose our jobs or if we can take time off can't afford to pay the bills!

That was my situation at the time I terminated (ignoring the health impact of hg and the fact that I am resistant to several anti-emetics) so lots of advice that I have seen along the lines of 'you'll cope', 'there is always enough space/love for another child' just wasn't realistic or relevant in my case and not what I needed (and not the advice I got really). But on a termination board I wouldn't have needed to post that jusfification. The focus would have been different, as it is on this thread. Just as the different issues women who have terminated may face in their relationships wouldn't attract the right support on the relationships board it seems, others who have been there would have a different focus. I think termination is just too different to any of the current boards to fit in neatly and be an obvious place to look. I do like Adam's idea of a sub tpoic in Body and Soul, it seems more appropriate.

I think a separate subtopic would be a great addition to mumsnet. It seems we can talk about everything here, except this.

I have had two terminations. One at 15, one at 24. I am 44 now. The one at 24 was entirely my own choice, I was surrounded by very supportive people and although I didn't tell them what was happening to me, they guessed and rallied round - drove me to the hospital, picked me up afterwards, generally looked after me. Apart from the trauma of the actual procedure (and it was traumatic for me, at the time and for a couple of days afterwards), I rarely think of it.

I am haunted by the one I had at 15. It wasn't my choice really, I just went along with what my parents wanted and was so ashamed of being in that position to begin with that I felt I had no voice or choice.

DH knows about them, but noone else (other than parents about the one at 15 obviously). I have had a couple of friends since then that have been very vocal about being pro-life and "every life is precious". Needless to say I haven't shared my experiences with them because they wouldn't understand at all.

Why is it OK to be so vocally judgmental, as if it is a badge of honour to say that no matter what the circumstances I would sacrifice myself/my current family life/my finances/my hopes and dreams, and you are a lesser and shameful person because you wouldn't.

About 10 years ago I got in touch with the boyfriend I had when I was 15 and we talked about it, he is the only person I've ever been able to talk about it with. We talked about the lasting effects it has had on us. For him - a child that was unplanned with a less than ideal partner, but "no way were we having an abortion, I've been through that before". For me - an unwanted graduate degree and less than satisfactory career, because I have been trying to make it up to my parents for 30 years. :(

What about a topic fairly broad and neutral like "contraception and reproductive rights".

Sorry, just to add OP that I agree 100%. It is something that is very relevant to women's lives but rarely discussed. I saw it mentioned in a tv show once that one of the characters had had an abortion. There was no judgement of or justification for her decision and it was so unusual and so shocking it made me realise how little we talk about it in public life.

mom, I'm sorry your friends were so strident.

Why is it OK? The simple answer, I think, is that it's easy to posture when you've never been in the situation you're mouthing off about.

Your friends have no idea what they'd do under those circumstances. They might choose one way or they might choose another, but whatever decision they made would not be half as simple, emotionally uncomplicated and morally obvious as they think it would be.

Thanks Adam. I agree, it is because of a complete lack of empathy.

It is funny because in both cases it was people that I had previously thought of as reasonable, good friends. And then they made these comments and I wondered what they would think of me if they knew, and also mentally removed them from my list of close friends. Nothing changed outwardly that they would notice probably, but to me, we stopped being good friends the second they said those words and eventually both friendships fizzled back to acquaintances.