smoking in pregnancy

[fallala]

An acquaintence(close friend of a friend) is six months pregnant, and has not managed to stop smoking ( about ten a day I think)
I don't smoke (used to smoke the odd one or two but stopped when I realised I was starting to enjoy it).

I appreciate it must be hard to give up but can it really be THAT hard? I struggle to be positive about this person at the best of times. Actually I think she is a silly little so and so. Am I being a bit harsh to think shre is being stupid and selfish? Not that I am perfect but I would never have done anythign to harm my babies in the womb.

fallala,

Yes, it is quite hard. I became pregnant with dd1 totally unexpectantly, and to be honest relinquishing cigarettes was the least I could do. I also smoked about ten a day, and dd1 was around 61/2 pounds, but so was dd2 and I put that down to us both being quite slight.

I do think you're being a bit harsh on her - she probably realises it's not the best thing to do. I did realise it but with the greatest of respect no-one could have stopped me and I don't think I was/am a terrible mother.

Personally I think that as soon as someone finds out they are pregnant they should try and stop as soon as possible, both for their own and their babies health. I know someone who smoked heavily through the whole of her pregnancy and her son has had problem after problem and I can't help but think if she had not smoked they either wouldn't have been there or not been as severe.

It's her problem and she has to deal with the consequences, but, i must admit it makes me cringe to see heavily pregnant smokers.

Chiccadum,

I guess that's why heavily pregnant smokers do it out of the public eye. I too hate to see it. I have to say, and please don't feel offended by this, but with the best will in the world anything can cause problem after problem in a baby. My children mean the world to me, both before and after I had them. I was also afraid of tut-tutters when a friend and I went to lunch with our two dds (then x2&x3), till an Australian lady made a point of coming over and congratulating us on having a nice time despite two bottles of wine, several cigarettes and four children in tow. I realise this is different to having one in your womb, but I wonder if either of your would have felt the same way about that too.

By the way, what would you call a heavy smoker?

I've never smoked but I would have found it incredibly difficult to completely give up alcohol when pregnant (apart from the first few weeks when even the thought of a drink made me sick) - I drank one or two glasses of wine a day whilst pregnant, and when breast feeding, so I guess that is the same as finding it hard to stop smoking.

BTW - my MIL (a midwife!!!!!!!!!!!) smoked heavily 20-30 a day - whilst pregnant and b/feeding - she had two very healthy children!

There is heaps of scientific evidence about what smoking does to your unborn baby and in the case of girls (as their eggs are formed while in the womb), your unborn baby's babies. If you are not prepared to give up smoking for your baby you shouldn't get pregnant. Personally I think that smoking while pregnant is as bad as child abuse.

I see it as a form of abuse too.
I don't think drinking in moderation is comparible as there is little evidence it does any harm .
Another thing about this person is she had radiotherapy some years ago and was warned her eggs might be harmed so she is starting off with a disadvantage which can't be helped and adding to it one which can.
When my friend mentions her I struggle not to make a remark about her smoking.
She is a nurse and well aware of the dangers.

I wouldn't go as far as to call it child abuse. For people who have always been repulsed by the very idea of smoking, it's hard to understand how difficult it is for smokers - many of whom may have been smoking for the best part of their lives - to give up.

I belong to another pregnancy/birth website and this issue comes up frequently; you may be surprised to hear that quite a few women were advised by their doctors not to give up completely if it was causing them too much physical or mental stress, as in weighing the situation they were of the opinion that high stress levels in the mother would do more harm than a couple of fags here and there (obviously they were all advised to cut down as much as possible and give up if they could, and I'm sure that those who smoked heavily (10+ per day..?) were strongly reminded of the dangers.

I smoked before I was pregnant and gave up comletely as soon as my period was late, even before I'd got a +ive hpt result. I really enjoy smoking but my personal reasoning is that if I'm not prepared to give up during pregnancy, then I probably never will. Also I wouldn't have liked the habit to continue so that my child has to grow up in a smoky house. However this is a personal opinion and I'm very much of the opinion that women should be allowed to make their own choices with regards to their own health and habits, even during pregnancy: a baby is still part of the mother until it is born and I'd hate to be someone who judges women who probably feel guilty enough already. I live in a capital city and no doubt my foetus has experienced quite a bit of pollution already. I also don't do enough exercise, haven't given up caffeine, and gave in to pate and champagne at Christmas. I have also sat with friends who have been smoking and told them to feel free to carry on, even when they asked if I'd rather they didn't. Where do you draw the line of what is acceptable and what isn't?

There have been legal precedents in the USA of pregnant women being charged with child abuse for drinking alcohol while pregnant, and on a 'lesser' scale it's not unusual in some areas for restaurants to refuse to serve alcohol to pregnant women. I'd hate for us to ever reach that point, especially when our health service (or perhaps our culture?) has no problem with offering support and assistance to pregnant alcoholics and drug addicts. Smoking does harm the unborn but then apparently now so does eating tuna. I've had a lot of tuna over the last few months, and I guess it's just another thing to add to the list of things that make me a 'bad' pregnant women, along with all the above.

Sorry this is long but the 'duty of care' debate is one I find really interesting )

Some interesting points but personally I think the "where do you draw the line" argument is a bit of a non starter and can be used to justify anyone's stance on anything.
IMO smoking in pregnancy is well on the unacceptable side of the line and I don't think a woman has the right to damage her baby just because it is still inside her and technically "part" of her.
I just can't come to terms with this seemingly intelligent woman who has battled the odds to get pregnant doing anything which might harm her baby.

Tamz77 - you have raised some very intersting points - I too get 'sick' of the nanny state attitudes that seem to be everywhere these days. I think that everyone has a choice & we have to take responsibility for our decisions ourselves (ie: I think the current craze for suing cigarette companies is ridiculous) - I know I drink & eat too much, I am 3 stone over weight & should do more exercise, it is therefore likely that I will have heart problems later on & my life expectancy is reduced, but that is my choice - does it make me a bad parent?

Carla, when I say she smoked heavily I meant 20 or 30 roll ups a day, more if she went out clubbing,

Someone else I know once phoned me up feeling rough (she was 6months pregnant), I felt sorry for her until she told me she been to a party and had a big bottle of bacardi, some people will never never learn

Just thought it interesting to add that all non smokers think that smokers are pathetically weak willed. However, it should be noted that giving alcohol up completely (i.e. never haave another drink again - not ever, ever) is something that most people, nay, nearly all people couldn't contemplate. Fallala - it is interesting to see that you ahve a strong opinion on smoking, and think that drinking in moderation (again - what is moderation - different to all people no doubt) is OK because there is little evidence it does any harm, and yet I read a report not long ago that there is evidence to suggest that consumption of alcohol is even more damaging to the unborn baby than a few cigarettes, even a small amount.

Also - how quick we are to purchase diesel cars because they are cheap to run, but diesel particulates are some of the most poisonous substances in the atmosphere, which we are all made to breathe in every day.

The whole world is coming down on smokers "for their own health" and yet noone can even mention someone eating fried food when already overweight - even though heart disease still kills more people than anything.

I have the occasional glass of wine. I have the occasional cigarette again, now I am not PG or breastfeeding anymore. It was ridiculously hard to give up smoking whilst pregnant, but I managed it just about but was not an angel from beginning to end. My DD was born at just under 8 llbs and is as bright and intelligent as all the other babies I know born at the same time.

I am appalled that someone could group me together with someone who abused their children (what - the same as sexually abusing a 5 year old? Or just beating them severely?) Does a stressed mother having a cigarette really compare?

I don't mean to sound tetchy - but nobody's perfect. If she isn't a close friend, then don't give it a second thought - and let her get on with making her own decisions, good or bad.

Interesting debate. Never smoked so can't comment on giving it up. However, totally gave up alcohol and caffeine while pg and b/f. Am I the only one who did?

While pg, Philippa, but not while b/f. Couldn't wait that long for the odd latte or glass of wine. (And I did b/f for two years...)
I used to work for a tobacco control agency and there is a wealth of evidence that smoking while pregnant can be extremely harmful for unborn babies. But, like all tobacco-related health problems, it is not a 100% risk: not all smokers get lung cancer and not all children exposed to smoke in the womb get serious respiratory infections while young. It's the avoidability of these health problems that makes me sad.
I think there is still so much more that could be done to help and encourage pregnant women give up - and preferably stay off once their child is born. I think making them feel good about kicking an incredibly addictive habit is a positive way to look at the issue. Making people feel guilty about their lifestyle imperfections very rarely has the desired effect (says a life-long non-smoking chubette).
Fallala, if you find the right moment, please encourage her to quit and support her if she shows the slightest interest in doing so. This website might help: QUIT

When I was in France and very obviously pregnant (ie over 6 months with a large bump)restaurant staff everywhere were very surprised that I turned down wine on the grounds of being pregnant.

My understanding is that drinking during pregnancy is an issue even in small amounts during the first trimester, but that after that small amounts are ok. At least that was how I was advised by doctors both in the usa and the uk. The harm caused by drinking in the first trimester or cigarettes at any time during pregnancy is in no way comparable to the risks from eating unpasteurized cheese or tuna. It's like comparing the dangers of crossing the M11 on foot or your local side street. Yes, there are risks involved in both cases, but clearly one is far more dangerous than the other and therefore worth making the effort to avoid.
I think eating and drinking a little too much when you are not pregnant, but still a parent is not comparable with smoking while pregnant. However, now that I am a parent I do think more carefully about what I do in terms of risk taking as I feel I have a certain amount of responsibility to my chidren to be around for them for as long as possible. Along the same lines, when Diana died, my mother's first comment was "What a terrible mother, why did she get in a car with a drunk driver and why wasn't she wearing a seat belt."

I've never smoked, but I personally agree with SofiaAmes, about it being a form of child abuse. If you are not prepared to make that sacrifice for the health of your child then I really don't think you can claim be committed to your children. My son was born with a birth defect, just as a one in 600 chance, one of those things that happens for no particular reason. To think of doing something which will increase the risk of your child being born sick - and potentially causing long-term ill effects is unthinkable to me. The role of a mother is to protect her child - not to go selfishly on doing something which will cause her baby damage, knowing the risks and deciding to carry on regardless.

SofiaAmes I can see your point about child abuse, but I'm afriad I don't agree with you. The first few weeks before people often realise they are pregnant are vital for development and I know without doubt I smoked a pack of ciggarettes and drank a bottle and a half of wine the weekend before I tested positive. This means I was about 6 weeks pg. Now I didn't know I was pg and I didn't smoke again thru the pregnancy (I am not a regular smoker normally) but I did drink a glass or two of wine often during those first weeks, we went on hols to france! No Dr advised me that the odd glass of wine was a problem, in fact mine suggested that a relaxed mother was better than a stressed one anyway. I also ate runny eggs, goats cheese and other no no's.

I don't like seeing pregnant women smoking, and feel they should be encouraged and helped to quit, but not treated like a criminal. Drinking a glass or two of wine is the same, no problem, a bottle of bacardi is a different matter.

I agree with Crunchie. Fallala, although it is not good to smoke, this woman needs your support.

Without making excuses (I am a smoker, stopped for 2 years then started again when dd was tiny), nicotine is one of the most addictive drugs known to man. Some people find it harder to give up than others - even people who have been told they will die soon if the don't give up sometimes continue to smoke.

Actually, saying I stopped for two years is a lie. I started again briefly at a friends funeral before I knew I was pregnant. I didn't mention this to my doctor, although I probably would have done if there had been any problems with my pregnancy - as it goes I think a lot of the research on smoking in pregnancy suffers from this.

Completely agree with Cruncie here. So many pregnancies are unplanned that many women will obviously continue drinking until they realise. I gave up caffinated coffee (went off the taste) but still drank tea, had the occasional drink, upto 3 glasses of wine on Christmas Day. I was certainly drunk when I concieved and was drunk quite a few times before I realised I was pregnant. I've never smoked but agree with the analogy that I couldn't contemplate giving up alcohol FOR EVER.

It must phenomenally difficult to give up smoking as, like Batters says, why don't more people do it. My dad still couldn't give up after he had had a heart attack and was told not.

It's bloody difficult to give up! When I fell pregnant I drank like a fish and smoked 20 a day, the hardest thing about the pregnancy was definitely giving up smoking (I actually smoked my last cigarette 5 minutes before doing the test) and reducing wine consumption to a few units a week. I really think the first 2 or 3 months of my first pregnancy I spent a lot of the time being quite depressed as a lot of my spare time had been about being out with friends or partner, drinking too much, smoking too much, being in pubs/restaurants which were really smokey, etc, and it all had to stop more or less overnight. It was remarkably difficult to have such a huge change in lifestyle and I was pleased I managed to stop smoking overnight but it was difficult.
I had a friend about 2 years previous to this who fell pregnant and coudln't give up smoking but reduced from 20 to 5 a day. I spent a lot of time listening to various friends whispering that she should stop etc (some who didn't even smoke so I think didn't really had a right to comment as harshly as they did) and still am glad that I defended her every time, commented on how hard she had tried, etc. She knew damn well she was running a risk and was very upset about not being able to kick the habbit completely but she gave up alcohol completely. She did read a lot of statistics about how drinking can damage your baby, even one unit during your pregnancy, and felt she could at least help in this area and was able to give up drinking. Like a lot of us have said, the thought of not having a single drink for 9 months is difficult but if she found this easy in comparison to giving up smoking try imagining how hard it is to give up smoking.

this thread is very interesting.

my 2c. when i was pregnant i consulted a number of books and found different advice in them regarding alcohol, caffeine, diet etc.

the most extreme differences of opinion were over alcohol. the things i read ran the gamut from, "give up alcohol three months before you start to try to conceive" to, "it's ok to have one unit per day all the way through" ("emma's diary" - in case anyone can't believe that - this is Oct 2001 btw!) i remember the earnest advice in one book (i think it was "what to expect..." that if you drank 9+ units of alcohol per day your baby was almost certain to have foetal alcohol syndrome - the reason i mention this being it would seem that if you drank 9+ units per day you would have TONS of problems in any event!

some books said absolutely no caffeine, others said a limited amount was ok - this was backed up by midwives advice.

the only thing that was absolutely consistent from all sources of advice was to give up smoking immediately.

i did give up smoking when i got my positive test. i had a similar lifestyle to the one janus describes, which i had to give up overnight. janus, i still miss the lifestyle! how about you?

BUT giving up smoking was absolutely the hardest thing, giving up alcohol was NOTHING by comparison, a minor inconvenience.

i also learned from the midwives (can't remember how it came up) that it is actually a tiny proportion of women who quit smoking when pregnant.

i suppose my point with this is that a bit more support and a little less sitting in judgement might be more likely to achieve the desired result.

I'm sorry if I am sounding very judgemental of pregnant smokers. I do realize that it is hard to quite smoking and that people should be given far more encouragement and support to do so than is given from official sources. No one is perfect and we all have our weak points and areas where we choose to compromise. I am particularly sensitive on this point at the moment as my dh's ex is pregnant (yet again), this time with twins and she is chain smoking and drinking her way through the pregnancy. She's not even interested in trying to stop. She did the same while pregnant with my dh's children and they have all sorts of problems as a result including asthma and being very very small for their age. It makes me angry because I know how bad their hygeine and nutrition is and know that there will be nothing in those babies' lives later on (like healthy food or clean air) that makes up for her bad pregnancy habits.